Limping to induce -- is this a thing?

Limp SB is solver approved, not so much elsewhere. You do see limping in mystery bounties but usually bigger stacks. People just play bad, be happy print

What stakes are you playing?

Low -- I guess people just play bad. It is so prevalent, though, it makes me wonder if they are bots with same coding.

I see awful limping on wptgold all the time in everything 33 and under. ISO linear ranges call off small shoves. I can't imagine anyone would program a bot that way.

You're right: Monkey see monkey do is probably a more simple explanation. Occam's razor.

We do have a wide range of limps at 15BB effective in HJ CO BTN. Quite an interesting spot to study.

It sounds like some players are getting the general idea right but may be applying it incorrectly - either limping too often in EP or calling too wide when jammed on.

But what you have described isn’t too far off correct strat for late position play.

GTOGecko based on pure EV -

This is why I love GTO/Solvers.

Seriously they are folding KK half the time after they limp in and BTN goes all in? Same with QQ... Also they are folding AKo and AKs some of the time. I get why they are not limping with AQo and a bunch of other hands but why in the world would they limp with AKo if they are limping AKs especially if they are going to fold to jams? And they are calling with 88 more than 99! Same with A8s over AJs/ATs/A9s.

I am eternally grateful that people are limping with 15 bb's. Not because I would jam on the BTN or even raise. But because I get to play a whole bunch of hands in position for 1 bb. And if I am SB I get to call for half a blind. And of course if I am BB I get to play for free.

I am also grateful that a part of the limping range is AA.

I am also grateful that you posted this CO limp table at 15 bb's. I never would have guessed that the limping that is going on could be GTO/Solver related.

No antes?

Also interesting it's calling TT more than JJ, QQ, or KK. Heck, KJs is calling more than KK.

Oldsilver said the node is pure EV... maybe this is a spot where solver gains a small amount of bb in EV for the overall range but the strat fails badly at future game? (yes, I know we suck at modeling future game)

There has to be something else going on with that graphic. There is 0% chance a GTO solver would tell you to limp/fold KK at 15bb. Maybe the grayed out spots are where we raised first in here.

Hi @Rick these charts aren’t weighted

Full CO range here including all opens limp 2bb and jam.

So we are only looking at what the limp (green) section does facing a raise, which is to call around 1/3 of limped combos and fold 2/3

Gecko is a bit limited for display settings. I’d prefer more colour contrast between shove and 2bb. And a different font. And as mentioned above the display should show 2.5 in pot because settings show 12.5% (1bb) ante elsewhere.

Limping to induce is a thing, in which case one could do it with TT+/AK or QQ+ and have limp/folds. You can also minraise to induce, but limping might get more action for big hands with like 15xBB.

However, fishy limpers limp in and then don't want to fold. Similar things happen deep early in the tournament or in cash when they limp in all then call to see a flop.

Ah, ok, limitation on the display graphics explains my dismay with the strategy. LOL.

All players having 15bb wasn't really the topic, though. I'm curious what the solver says when HJ has 30bb+ and there is a mix of one player behind with 15bb or less and others also have 30bb+, or CO has 30bb+ and there is a mix of one player behind with 15bb or less and others also have 30bb+.

(what's the stack size where we expect villains to start jamming over our opens rather than normal sized 3betting? 15bb seems right to me)

Thanks oldsilver.

My assumption that what was in black was a fold was clearly wrong. It is Blue that is folding and basically only K high or worse hands are folding.

However I think the graphs are wrong when they are recommending a raise that isn't all in in a color that is similar to the all-in but lighter. So for KK they are never jamming, they are either raising or limping. And then the graph that says what to do after a jam is wrong because it should all be green. This is true for QQ and AKo as well as some others.

Still I am grateful to solvers to having people limp preflop. I get that they don't want to jam with the weaker hands because they are likely to lose when called and win just 2.5 blinds when they aren't. But to limp in the CO gives everyone else a decent shot of winning a lot of pots that I wouldn't call a raise with.

@Rick the graphs are correct. We are only looking at what the green limp range does facing a raise. Take some time to understand the display if it’s not clear. It is quite common. I agree there’s not enough colour contrast between raise/jam and fold/outofrange

@AllJackedUp you may find larger range libraries and preflop solves in GTOWizard to look at that specific scenario. GTOGecko has only just released its first icm charts for a small set of different stack sizes. GTORanges+ has a wider range of charts but doesn’t include limp as an option. PIO can crunch any scenario you want but it takes quite an investment in subs and hardware. AI solvers will be quite the thing in the next few years, with all major GTO suites likely to introduce AI solves for any scenario you care to plug in.

For now, it is more a question of effective stacks, which we can only guess at based on the distribution of stacks following us. If we open CO with 30bb then I guess limp is an option if we have some 15bb stacks behind.

Solvers give us broad strategies and insight. What we do with those is up to us as players, taking all game info into account.

SB is ripping 25bb 3 bets fairly standard with part of their range.

But in general 15-20bb is where I would expect to start seeing people piling in on my min open with some of their range. Under 15 nearly all their range.

Solvers do use limp-induce in specific spots, usually when the limper has good equity vs a wide jam range but also wants to realize equity in a multi-way pot if the short stack doesn't jam. Seen it show up a lot in final table bubbles where a 10bb stack is shoving near any two and the limp gets more value out of hands that play well post-flop. That said, most players I see doing it are not doing it for solver reasons, they just have a pair and are scared of flipping so they limp and hope nobody notices.