To jam or not to jam?
$600 live tournament, 40 entrants and down to the final table of 9 players.
5 places are officially paid but the players have agreed to do a deal once there are seven players left and give 7th and 6th place a payout taken from the tourney purse.
Hero is the short stack with 8bbs. There are a couple of middle stacks who have around 10-15 bbs, some slightly larger stacks, and one big stack.
Folds to hero in UTG+2 and he is dealt 6♦6♠
Is this an automatic ICM fold? Or is there some argument for jamming?
Payouts are as follows:
1. $7081
2. $4887
3. $2892
4. $2094
5. $1496
6. $1000
7. $500
21 Replies
I am jamming because I usually go out swinging. If the big stack in in the bb or if the table is really active, I may fold.
You are parable going to lose 2:5 bbs in the next four hands if you fold the bb and sb which is about 30% of your stack and you realistically need to double up to make the money. You really don’t want callers if you jam from early position with a small pair. I won’t lose sleep going out here as the small stack, if I jammed and lost.
We could estimate you icm value of your stack with more information. I’m kind of surprised that 9 people cut a deal for 7 to get paid, instead of all 9.
At 8BB and the shortest stack, and two spots away from making money, I think you have to jam. Not fun, but you're still flipping against a lot of the calling range even when you are called. And if it's a tight table, that's a better likelihood your shove gets through.
I hate saves more than anything in tournaments except for using BBs instead of orbits for stack size, but what in the world was the argument for giving 7th $500 instead of $600?
I probably fold with 66 in that position, but nothing wrong with jamming.
I ran the spot in HRC, and it's pretty much a break even shove.
A couple interesting takeaways:
A2s is a more profitable shove than pocket 8s. That's pretty counterintuitive and shows how important the ace blocker is.
I also ran it with a smaller stack in the BB, and it turned into a -EV shove. You would think you would prefer to have a smaller stack in the BB, because their risk premium would be higher and they wouldn't be able to call as wide. However having a big stack in the BB is actually better because it forces the other players to play tighter against your shove.
I hate saves more than anything in tournaments except for using BBs instead of orbits for stack size, but what in the world was the argument for giving 7th $500 instead of $600?
I probably fold with 66 in that position, but nothing wrong with jamming.
No idea about the decision to make it $500 for seventh.
I agree about the shove and in hindsight kinda wish I had folded.
I ran the spot in HRC, and it's pretty much a break even shove.
A couple interesting takeaways:
A2s is a more profitable shove than pocket 8s. That's pretty counterintuitive and shows how important the ace blocker is.
I also ran it with a smaller stack in the BB, and it turned into a -EV shove. You wo
Very interesting, thanks for taking a look. Cool to get the insight about having the ace blocker too, and how the BB stack size impacts strategy counterintuitively. I'll keep that in mind for similar spots in the future.
I ran the spot in HRC, and it's pretty much a break even shove.
A couple interesting takeaways:
A2s is a more profitable shove than pocket 8s. That's pretty counterintuitive and shows how important the ace blocker is.
I also ran it with a smaller stack in the BB, and it turned into a -EV shove. You wo
These ranges seem excessively tight. Might it be because you ran the spot without antes? I only see 1.5 BBs in the pot in the diagram.
These ranges seem excessively tight. Might it be because you ran the spot without antes? I only see 1.5 BBs in the pot in the diagram.
Hey good catch. You're right I accidentally ran the sim without a BB ante. Shoving pocket 6s becomes pretty clearly+EV once you account for the ante.
Folding here is pretty insane.
Hey good catch. You're right I accidentally ran the sim without a BB ante. Shoving pocket 6s becomes pretty clearly+EV once you account for the ante.
And now you are looking at UTG, hero was even UTG+1. So Yeah I would shove any pair as the shortest stack at sub 8Bb UTG+1.
Sucks to flip for your tournament life sometimes but if you manage to get the double you are in a much more comfortable situation to atleast make the money.
$600 live tournament, 40 entrants and down to the final table of 9 players.
5 places are officially paid but the players have agreed to do a deal once there are seven players left and give 7th and 6th place a payout taken from the tourney purse.
Hero is the short stack with 8bbs. There are a couple of
Arguments for jamming are you are still a big enough stack to have fold equity, as the smallest stack you should not be able to fold yourself into the money, and if you double or triple up you might be looking at 4th or 5th place money not 7th.
All fair points, thanks guys.
Well, you still have to tell us results although your hints tell us it ended poorly!
The problem is, you are the absolute shortest stack and you're two off the money out of 9. In a bigger field, you might be able to fold two off the money and wait for someone else to bust. If you had 8BB but there were a couple of stacks with like 3BB, you might be able to fold two off the money and wait for them to bust. But you're the absolute shortest stack and 22% of the remaining field has to be eliminated to get to the money. Clear shove IMO.
Hey good catch. You're right I accidentally ran the sim without a BB ante. Shoving pocket 6s becomes pretty clearly+EV once you account for the ante.
Interesting that A7s is negative EV to shove and all the other suited aces are not. I'd guess it's because calling ranges dominate us below A8s (or with A8s and above we block some pairs that could call us as well as Ax-- I wouldn't be surprised if most calling ranges start at 88 at a minimum in this spot), and with A2s-A5s you can make a wheel, and A6s wins against better Ax when the board runs out 2345.
[QUOTE=nath;58806510]The problem is, you are the absolute shortest stack and you're two off the money out of 9. In a bigger field, you might be able to fold two off the money and wait for someone else to bust. If you had 8BB but there were a couple of stacks with like 3BB, you might be able to fold two off the money and wait for them to bust. But you're the absolute shortest stack and 22% of the remaining field has to be eliminated to get to the money. Clear shove IMO.
Sure thing, understood. Thanks for the input.
The problem is, you are the absolute shortest stack and you're two off the money out of 9. In a bigger field, you might be able to fold two off the money and wait for someone else to bust. If you had 8BB but there were a couple of stacks with like 3BB, you might be able to fold two off the money and
Software assume rational calling ranges. In reality A7s is better to shove with than A2s. You make much less straights, but some donk could call with 77 or A7s or whatever.
