Beware of Nathaniel Knox staking
Don’t offer staking to Nathaniel Knox. Beware!
Hello, this is Bocian, the CEO of Pokerninjas.org Staking Group. We are just terminating our cooperation with Nathaniel Knox from Vancouver.
Long story short, he either scammed us or lost the ability to play poker profitably after a mental breakdown. I want to share the full story so that others are aware in the future who they might be dealing with.
First we were staking him for a first half of 2022, then decided to pause the cooperation due to his full time studies. He was an okish player back then, winning up to 5k USD before split per month. Then he rejoined us in April 2024, after finishing (or abandoning) his studies. His skill level went up during the off period. He started winning pretty big pre split at midstakes starting with May (9k and 17k), then had a slightly losing month post rakeback (-4k), then had the best month of his career. Till then he had been playing pretty well with like 8-10bb/100 EVBB after having returned.
In August 2024 he managed to win 43k USD playing mostly up to PLO600 with some 1k HU game vs a specific opponent included. The weird part is that he was playing without tracking back then. We require our players to track their progress all the time, but weren’t able to overcome technical difficulties on his machine back then. We managed to do this in the 2nd part of August and the tracking started running again. The 43k (even a bit more) was won within the first 2 weeks of the month. No other player had such a good run back then.
As a side note – we settle the score and payments with Clubs and Players on monthly basis (based on the weekly reports from the Clubs), but we allow players to “move” the settlement date as long as their weekly hourly targets are met (around 25h/week). So a player can settle month A with just two first weeks of the month and month B with two remaining month of month A added, totalling to 6 weeks. That way a player can have a guaranteed amount of money to split and if the later weeks of the month are bad for him, the negative balance will affect the next month and not the current one. Players often use this feature to help their mindset.
Nathaniel asked to guarantee profit after the first 2 weeks, then after the first 3 weeks of the month (3rd week was breakeven for him) and we agreed, because the requirements had been met.
We managed to get the tracking running in the middle of August. At the same time some regular dumps his several k bankroll to Nknox on one of the ClubGG Clubs chatting “Good luck with the play money”. And his decline begun.
https://gyazo.com/9c8b569f62dad991bb39bd...
Please note that at the same time he was in contact with some players from other Stable on Apps that was having cash flow difficulties. For example the Stable wasn’t able to transfer $600 to one of their players for several weeks (and bigger amounts to other players too). Then Nathaniel thought that the Clubs stopped paying their business associates and his money were in risk. We assured him that we have hard vouches everywhere and we ALWAYS pay our players. But he had already been tainted by this intrusive thought.
Then he dumped 13k USD in a day two days later. We had the tracking running already and it was a mix of bad plays and possible collussions. We asked him to stop playing in the suspected club (the very same he won big before). After getting the tracking to run his EVBB turned out to be -46bb/100 in 10k hands. He finally lost 12k USD in the last week of August and started the next month with further decline of -10k, playing some other, most likely clean games.
Then the August settlement came and we asked him to settle the whole month instead of 3 weeks, to not start September with -22k USD Make-Up. He declined and miracously won 10k USD the very next day in 2h of playing up to PLO600 (mostly HU). Pretty weird coincidence. Then we respected his Guaranteed Amount, proceeded with the settlement and he lost 10k in the next several days of playing. At this point it started to feel weird. As if someone helped him clearing the September balance to get the Guaranteed Payment. We didn’t realize it back then, but it was brought to our attention later, that the huge swings might have been caused simply by chipdumping. But we obviously don’t know that, I prefer to think that it’s unlikely and it might have been variance as well. But the coincidences were disturbing. He proceeded to lose more, playing really bad and not acknowledging any kind of negative feedback. No other player in the Group back then had remotely similar bad results. He ended up losing 14k and all of a sudden, after the very best month of his career he ended up in -26k Make-Up within a month. Quite a rollercoaster.
At the same time in September we had a several days delay with processing payments, because our main owner had his laptop broken while being abroad and he wasn’t able to authorize crypto transfers. We needed to wait for the computer service to fix the laptop and then the transfers were finally processed as usual. He finally got his 25k USD around 20th September.
But the delay apparently further damaged Nathaniel’s mind. Please note that he had been thinking that he was not getting paid for like a month back then (starting with the “Good luck with the play money” remark at 17th August). And this thought was causing his mental and poker breakdown. He started asking about a transfer on 4th September, although the earliest we EVER were able to finish the settlement and process transfers was around 11-12th day of the month. And August was 5 weeks long, so the settlement needed to be started a bit later (reports from Apps come on weekly basis, finishing each Sunday). So he was constantly worried about the money. Later he told one of our players that his hair went gray during that time. And he is a young guy. So the remark+downswing+delay took the deadly toll on him. And he is sure till present day that he hadn't been paid on time because we had to use hard vouch and because we supposedly run out of money (which is absurd). He doesn't believe in technical difficulties till now (or so he says).
Then he was trying playing to regrind the Make-Up, but his ability to play poker deteriorated. His mind was off. He was constantly losing money. This is his graph since the returning of tracking:
https://gyazo.com/e3c5e982c1593f89216ce7...
He was losing -32bb/100 EV adjusted in 30k hands, totalling -45k USD EV downswing and ending up losing 100 buyins straight. Noone else in the Group had a remotely similar downswing back then – most people were obviously making money, some had very good results. But not Nataniel unfortunately.
And then he decided he wants to quit poker, that poker doesn’t fullfill his needs, he wants to approach other goals. While being -34k USD in Make-Up. At this point our long time cooperation with him ended up with negative balance. We lost money in the long term.
We asked him to regrind the Make-Up. We wanted help him to get back on the right tracks. Offered mindset coachings, database analysis, poker coachings, etc. We did our best to help him. He didn’t want help, he started piling more and more ridiculous demands and he didn’t answer any of the negative feedbacks regarding his play (there was plenty of those).
Multiple times we proposed him a reasonable way of regrinding his MU, but he didn’t want to start or discuss the terms. He only wanted to start on his own rules, which were easily impossible for us to agree with:
https://gyazo.com/46c5ed0e32f0be4562670b...
https://gyazo.com/b09368c4423d811c73185b...
https://gyazo.com/33d1189f29870726d1c2a2...
Then a month ago I decided to arrange him a coaching session with one of our better HS players that had just rejoined us from the other (unstable) Stable. That player told him that he surely was a good player, but his current game was clearly bad and tilting. After the session Nataniel started claiming that the player told him that he is a very strong player and he should play at 1k as soon as possible to regrind the Make-Up. Being in 100BI downswing, not beating low midstakes. At that point we didn’t really know if he was that delusional or that audacious. It started to be clear for us that he was doing his best to get expelled and not regrind his MU. We felt scammed.
Then I added the HS player that had a coaching session with to the group chat with him. He summed up the situation pretty well:
https://gyazo.com/1905bd675c765558ec8a32...
Nathaniel kicked him off the Group Chat without answering. That did it, we gave up and decided to terminate the cooperation. We did our best, but we lost the battle.
I honestly wish that he ended his poker career and not be offered staking ever again. But if anyone wants to risk staking him, we can sell his debt for 1/3 of the price and we won’t care. If no one approaches us within the next 3 months, we are considering taking legal action against him or selling his debt to a third party for a third of the price. We’ll see.
I anyone is interested, I have all the chats with him backupped since August 2024, so if he decides to delete any vital info, nothing will be lost. I can provide a screenshot proving any of the situations posted above. But you need to have a good reason for this, like considering staking the guy.
Did he scam us? Was it just a mental breakdown? We will never know. All we know is that he is not a trustworthy business partner.
Beware of Nathaniel Knox. Be safe.
B
16 Replies
Very disappointed you decided to go this route, instead of getting mediation as I requested. Will be making a full response likely tomorrow.
Hey, so I’m not going to get into the specifics of the events leading up to the dispute, I have a 37 page google docs that gives more detail with screenshots of chats, if anyone is interested pls DM me. But roughly we were in the middle of negotiating a plan to move back up stakes to grind out ~35k of makeup, starting at PLO200s.
I, of course, was willing to play starting at PLO200s in order to grind out (I was putting in volume at 200s max in November/early December), but wanted to reach up to PLO600s ASAP to reduce the amount of rake I’m generating (Pokerninjas takes a significant chunk of rake money on the side, and gives horses ~35% rakeback in most cases, in clubs where ~80% rakeback is possible to get) and time I’m spending.
Pokerninjas has a history of moving horses down after large downswings, and never moving them back up, only to drop them months later. For this reason, I requested mediation to get a second opinion on the situation.
For reference, this player is playing hs now. But had a 6 month stretch of playing 200s, effectively getting farmed for rake (remember, Pokerninjas takes excess rake money on the side). And at the end, he simply got discarded (dropped) after he essentially worked for free for 6 months.
I’ve generated well over $10,000 of profits for Pokerninjas, INCLUDING the makeup they decided to drop me in. They made a TON of money from me, and I booked zero coachings, just used access to PLO trainer 4c and 5c and monker. Bocian saying they lost money in the long term is flat out untrue.
Instead of de-escalating the situation, Bocian decided it was best to simply kick me and out me.
I believe this was largely due to me bringing up how Pokerninjas invited me into a select elite group of players to profit share on the tables with, something that really didn’t sit right with me. I rejected this offer, just to be clear.
This concept of “debt” is frankly ridiculous. Pokerninjas dropped me in makeup in no violation of contract, instead of trying to figure out the situation with me. My play “sucking” (debatable) is besides the point. Sometimes a player is unable to beat the games, this doesn’t mean that they will then accrue debt instead of makeup, obviously. Is this company really so shady that they will sell fabricated debt to unscrupulous individuals? Apparently. Legal action? What on earth are they even talking about?
1. We move horses down only if they are unable to beat current stakes and their game needs fixing.
2. The player that was unable to beat PLO200 was expelled without any claims on our side - we just decided that we should cut the lossess. We let him go with huge MU, but he was cooperating and trying his best back then (it wasn't enough though). No hard feelings. We parted our ways in good terms.
3. We do not take excess money on the side.
4. You lost 4k USD of our money (till the end of November 24):
https://gyazo.com/381b69f4c18e9810703e43...
B
All I have to say is - if you don't take money on the side, then why would I receive less rakeback on my account after refusing to swap profits on the tables with other players?
Seems fairly cut and dry to me
imagine asking another party to buy out a third of his mu to take him on lol crazy
Lol, app stables aka:
We both lack the ability to make you significantly strong at the game nor do we care because we make heaps off of your rake if you breakeven. Guarantee you not a single "coach" in these groups have a significant enough sample at plo on main sites at high enough stakes with a winrate above zero.
Don't take coaching/deals with large scale groups, guys. Find people to be close to and grow with.
Big fail on pokerninjas, it reflects terrible on you
Then he was trying playing to regrind the Make-Up, but his ability to play poker deteriorated. His mind was off. He was constantly losing money. This is his graph since the returning of tracking:https://gyazo.com/e3c5e982c1593f89216ce7...He was losing -32bb/100 EV adjusted in 30k hands, totalling -45k USD EV downswing and ending up losing 100 buyins straight. Noone else
100 BI downswing over 30k hands is pretty extraordinary. Can you post some hand histories? Do you think he was intentionally punting stacks/ maximizing variance to try to get even?
I honestly wish that he ended his poker career and not be offered staking ever again. But if anyone wants to risk staking him, we can sell his debt for 1/3 of the price and we won’t care. If no one approaches us within the next 3 months, we are considering taking legal action against him or selling his debt to a third party for a third of the price. We’ll see.I anyone is intere
If you think Nathaniel scammed you $34k, then you have a claim against him. There's no reason why any future staker should be responsible for that debt.
It is shocking to me you took him in your company when it is quite obvious his mental game is extremely and it is affecting his game. I know people who have mental leaks but sustain good winrates over big samples. I would like to know the reasoning to take on a mediocre regular where he will bleed money when these mental leaks appear. On the other side you refused to take up on myself when i tried to learn plo even though i was an established high stakes regular in nl mtts. It seems like your screening progress is weak and obviously feel for you, it sucks to trust someone with money and lose them but the guy is a comedy show. Come on man, even if you didnt know him, read his blog
The important part is someone is not telling the truth. Is knox down 4k or won more than 10k? Whoever lies here loses any credibility but i will take a guess and say Ninjas are telling the truth
It feels like this Spork dude in 2+2 and Knox are going hand to hand. The moment they start running bad they are spewing but its ok because we are a good players. The good players are showing in downswings and how much of their winrate sacrifice PERIOD Any reg can be good while running good
Fwiw Bocian gave me some free material and he was helpful, i am strongly leaning on his side. Knox you should be ashamed, a man shows his qualities when life is difficult. People trusted you with money and it is in the contract that you have to pay make up, ''quitting'' poker which i dont believe you will do is such a scummy behavior. I feel there are no real men anymore. It is very simple if the contract has no mu rules when expire, or has no mu rules overall you are fine. If they have mu clauses that you cant leave under mu or the contract cant expire under mu grow some balls and be a real man
I see nothing wrong expose this behavior on 2+2 Poker would be in a much better places if we expose cheaters and scammers
Here's the bottom line:
1) Bocian and Nathanial both agree he has about $34k makeup.
2) Bocian and Nathanial both agree Nathanial can't voluntarily quit while in makeup.
3) Nathanial claims he didn't voluntarily quit, but Bocian dropped him.
Here are my questions:
- Who decides what stakes Nathanial plays? Is it Bocian's right to require Nathanial to play PLO200/ PLO400 before going up to PLO600?
- Why is there so much "negotiating" regarding stakes. What does the contract say?
- Nathanial: If the contract says Bocian has the right to make you play PLO200 until you can prove you beat the game, will you honor the contract? Or have you decided you intend to scam him for $34k you owe in makeup?
While Knox obviously comes off poorly here, it's crystal clear from Knox's fluctuating RB% and allusion to profit splitting with other players on the same table that this is not a squeaky clean operation that got wronged by an unstable horse. Did Knox chip dump? Who knows. Is he a winning player at midstakes in super high rake environments? Probably not. Is the Pokerninjas stable doing ethically scummy **** to unsuspecting players? That's a lock.
From Knox:
Pic #2
Excerpt from the OP of this thread:
"For a while we'll mostly need to play amongst ourselves." -> as the club gains traction and the house players start to fleece newcomers via soft or hard collusion (given they are sharing profits)
And "RB for everyone individually, winning splits 50% to oneself and 50% to a shared pool"
Bocian claims this is to limit variance but you can't kid yourself when you connect players socially and have them share profits that their incentives encourage ethical violations to increase the pool's earnings. Even if they aren't actively sharing hole cards etc it ALWAYS creates forms of soft collusion, eg not 3betting top of range pre to keep whales in post when the RFI player is in the shared pool of earnings.
This is really deplorable stuff and makes the OP come off way worse than a young adult with tilt issues and an inability to accurately gauge his performance.
The poker world would be far better off with the removal of OP and his cronies from the ecosystem than his horse.
I came into this thread expecting to get some entertainment out of a horse/backer fallout but have left with a terrible taste in my mouth for the OP and his operation.
Just to give everyone an update:
KnoxKnoxJoke is an incredible scumbag.
(1) He tells Bocian he intends to quit poker and focus on his new "rap career."
(2) Now he's back to playing poker on his own stake? How is he getting this money?
(3) I exposed him for being a scammer on his new 2+2 blog, and he messaged the moderator to ban me for a week.
I'm no longer able to post on his blog, so I'll be posting my thoughts here now.
KnoxKnox, you are utter trash as a human being.
- You're a loser in poker. You play 24 tables, 60 hours a week for 2+ years, and your lifetime graph is negative.
- You're a loser in life. You make a million excuses for why you can't beat online poker. Everyone is cheating. Everyone is colluded. Have you ever looked yourself in the mirror and realized you suck at the game?
- You scammed your business partner for $34,000. You told him you were going to quit playing poker, but instead you just stole his money and are still playing.
- You've created a new delusional blog and are trying to pretend like it never happened. When I called you out for being a scumbag scammer, you messaged the moderator and got me banned for a week.
Guess what, buddy. I'm still here. And I'm not going to let you get away with your lies, scams, and utter delusion.
If you were a real man, you'd beg for a job at 7/11 and work to pay off your debt. You aren't going to make money playing poker. You never have, and you never will.
Buddy, it’s not that I can’t beat online poker. It’s that I know I can do better.
What evidence do you have that you can do better? If I had played millions of hands of online poker, and lost money in the long-run, I would be convinced I was loser.
Instead, you are convinced that you've been cheated. But now you're going to magically beat all the cheaters and turn a profit?
Other than scamming your backers, how do you intend to make money playing poker?
Here's the real sickness.
Even in your fantasy world where everyone is cheating... That's an even greater reason to quit online poker!
You've played millions of hands... You've lost money... You're convinced every site is filled with bots and cheaters...
You just scammed your backer for $38,000... And now you've convinced yourself that you're so talented you can magically beat the cheaters?
If you had any dignity you would:
(1) Quit online poker
(2) Get a real job
(3) Payback the money you stole from your backer.
Stop trying to justify your endless delusions.
