5 5 10 300 bb deep
5/5 game with a btn straddle to 10. V in the hand is most aggressive stack at the table, though in the few hours I have been at the table he has generally had the goods. However, V is pretty active and has won quite a few pots uncontested. Effective stacks are 3, 000.
SB folds, V completes in BB, EP raises to 35, MP calls, and hero calls CO with TTJ6 ds. Btn folds. V now repops to pot, everyone calls. 4, players, 650 or so in the pot.
Flop is KT8, rainbow.
V pots, everyone else folds. Hero calls pot.
Turn is is a 5 and puts a 2 flush on the board. Pot is give or take 2k. V bets 1300. Hero has like 2.2k behind, V covers.
Hero has no backup, just middle set. Hero?
Edited, hopefully more clear.
13 Replies
post is a bit confusing
4 players to the flop?
Pot size on flop? turn?
How much behind on the turn?
Probably just stick it in
We lose to KK
Villain can also have 88, wrap, KQJT type hands
once we see the flop we probably never folding probably stick it on flop as well
The initial call and calling the reraise preflop are questionable to me, but now that you have put $900 or so in the pot you are not folding. I guess the question is about calling or jamming the turn then? Just gii at this point and yes, I would rather jam on the flop as well.
Thanks for your thoughts.
On the flop, why are we so excited to get it all in against a preflop limp reraise who was happy to bet pot into 3 ppl on the flop? That betting range likely either has us crushed (kk) or has tons of equity against us with nut wraps and backdoor flush draws? Seems like calling is better option to me but obv want to hear what y'all think.
On the turn, would a hand like a nut wrap bet only 2/3 pot when V is essentially pot committed and should bet pot to apply max pressure to move me off of middling hands that still beat him?
Preflop, why are we so excited to call a limp-reraise? On the flop, why are we so excited to call a pot size bet into 3 players from a range that likely either has us crushed or has tons of equity against us?
Preflop seems like a reasonable call closing the action with raiser and 2 callers already so getting like 5:1 immediate with position. On the flop, with the most aggressive player potting seems like a call no? There are quite a few arguing for getting it in on the flop which I would like to understand the reason for.
Once we see this flop we are never folding right? I guess we can fold now if you have 100% reads that villain does this with KKxx and KKxx only.
So normally if villain has KKxx it's just a cooler right.
Now vs villain's other ranges like 2pairs+st8d, wrap, 88 type hands.
If we call, a turn comes 9, J, Q, A, 7 are we calling still? or folding? If we are calling, we are usually way way behind. If we are folding, then you gave your opponent "free" card to begin with and you lost a hand where you should've won equity wise. We lost so much money and yet still fold a hand with equity.
Now if the turn pairs, will his wrap still put in the money? Most likely no!?
Is his range ever folding to a flop shove? He's literally never folding unless he has a bluff. I guess he can find a fold if he's got like naked bottom 2 pairs or AAxx that's just monkey betting for this size. But usually when people bet for this size, they don't fold.
So we can just stick in our money vs a cooler or when we are ahead.
Instead of seeing a bad turn that either kills the action or lets the opponent catch up.
The only good turns are 2-6 which is less than half the deck? 5cards*4 =20 outs = 40% of seeing a blank. The other 60% you'll be miserable.
Also do you think most people are willing to chase for draws on the flop when they have 2 more cards to come or on the turn when there's only 1 more card to come for whole stack?
*edit* 6 might be a bad card as well, 97xx gets there, so clean outs are 2-5 = 4 cards*4 = 16 outs = 32% of seeing a blank.
I don't like gii on flop because there are so many cards that could crush us on the turn. This is not one of those cards.
If we are not willing to gii vs. the most aggressive player at the table on this turn, we should definitely fold pre.
Yes, I agree that the preflop set up this mess, at the time I figured closing the action and a pretty fit or fold hand in position was a no brainer.
Do you guys think that most aggro regs would bet only 2/3 pot on a blank on the turn with a draw that now only has 1 card to come? Feels like if V had a draw a pot size bet would maximize odds of a fold since he isn't fold if I jam for the rest anyways once he bets 2/3. I also have a J in my hand so that does decrease odds of him having missed draws slightly. I dont know, just a pretty sick spot with no way to improve but the second nuts on the turn and trying to dodge 1/2 the deck on the river.
As I said, if you are going to fold on this turn to this V, "V is pretty active and has won quite a few pots uncontested, " just fold pre. If you don't fold pre, fold on the flop. A 5 is a great turn card. Not sure what you were hoping for? Another 10 😉
First call is meh, better on the button. In button straddle games ep lrr are more common so we should tighten up a bit compared to not button straddled. The ccer makes our suits more trashy.
But the second call is punty. The suit arguments remain but the pp is a bigger flaw because as ranges narrow the pp does a poor job retaining equity. Just fold here.
As played, calling seems ok when he B100 we can get the money in ott now and have position so let's do so skillfully. Why give that up? Had he bet small(er) I'm certainly raising because that leads to play for stacks. Raising isn't terrible but I'm not sure it's clearly better than calling specifically against B100.
As played his sizing continues to be wild. If he had us crushed he should bet smaller and try for two streets or just pot. Hard to say what's happening here so just stack off I guess. If he has it he has it.
V could certainly have hands H is ahead of like AKQJ KQJT AAJ9 where the 5 also gave him a fd.
