Two competent 150bb regs jammed me off the nut‑flush blocker — what am I missing?
Twice in one month, on two different sites, two competent, non‑tilted, 150bb‑deep regs made massive river jams that blew me off the nut‑flush blocker. I have thousands of hands with each player, and neither is the type to punt or ego‑jam.
I don’t have the HHs, but here are the structures. First hand i'm calling down, second i'm leading the betting.
Hand 1 — 3‑bet pot, 150bb deep
• I’m IP with an ace‑high rundown.
• Board runs out giving me backdoor nut‑flush blocker
• Pot is ~100bb.
• Villain — a tight, non‑spewy reg — jams 100bb into 100bb on the river.
• He is absolutely capable of checking to induce or betting smaller, so the sizing is bizarre.
Is this ever correct for a backdoor non‑nut flush? Why would a competent reg choose a pot‑sized jam instead of checking to induce bluffs from NFB, or use a smaller sizing to get called by worse? Or just be cautious in general of the nut flush? This line feels like it specifically targets the nut‑blocker, which seems very weird and stranger for this player type. Does he feel 100bb confident that his bdf or whatever value he has is good against my turn calling range? bdfd comes OTT and I called a big bet. I guess it could be a high-level bluff without the nfb but don't you have to consider what i'm calling with OTT?
Hand 2 — Limped pot, 5‑way, 150 eff
• I limp AdAxx in SB.
• Board: A‑7‑4♦♦, then T♦, then Qx.
• I lead flop, c‑bet turn, and fire 22bb into 33bb on the river.
• Villain — who has been calling down — jams river.
This player is not tilted and does not put in stacks without being good.
Even if he somehow soul‑reads me for NFB, I don’t see how this is ever a raise. So what is he representing? Why would he ever raise instead of just calling with a non‑nut flush? To get me off top set or straight? I haven't been repping those, i limped the aaxx pre. This super standard where front door flush fills OTT, and the decision is either to call or fold non nut flush, usually not between calling or jamming.
both situations felt like they could see my exact holding. just a strange feeling i'm sure ppl are familiar with. i'm not saying they're cheating, i'm saying that feeling where they act as if they can see your hand, there's something to be learned there.
Thanks for your time,
6 Replies
Hand1
Um... bdflushes are harder. It's normal to jam thinner?
V range is wide, from bluffs to sets/straights to backdoor flushes.
Hand2
It's possible he's got a read on you. It's also possible you were a whale to him.
Btw 150bb isn't that much.
Maybe they were bluffing lol?
There are lines you can take with high card flush blockers like the K, Q, or J that bluff rivers to make opponents fold better hands like 2p and sets
Most likely in hand 1 the BDFD came in and he had a blocker to it along with unblockers to the front door flush draw but a weak hand like middle pair and a gutter that whiffed.
Could be value too. We can jam a lot of second nut flushes in PLO. Maybe he had bottom pair with front door draw blockers and a BDFD that got there and is jamming the second nuts in hopes you don’t believe him and call a hand like Top2 with a flush blocker or set plus flush blocker.
Hand 2 maybe something along the lines of middle set with a Kd that now turns into a bluff on river as it’s clear it’s no good and with you limping from the SB it’s hard to have the NF in your line. Be weary of representing nut flushes in limped pots. Generally just have too many naked A blockers in your range and if you bluff them all you are over bluffing a ton.
Orrrrr
And more likely
They aren’t as good as you think they are.
Hand 2
limping from the SB it's hard to have the NF in your line. Be weary of representing nut flushes in limped pots. Generally just have too many naked A blockers in your range and if you bluff them all you are over bluffing a ton.
most players, even regs though not myself limp/flat or open the suited ace from any position. NFD leads are super common and paying off every one that gets there is burning money. front door non nut flushes are essentially bluff catchers.
Hand1
Hand2
It's possible he's got a read on you. It's also possible you were a whale to him.
what does this mean? what kind of read? a read to re-bluff? is jamming better than calling with value?
if i'm a whale to him, how does that influence his play?
these are two regs who rarely if ever go out of line esp when they are playing 150-200 deep.
hand1 villain is value betting worse. It's not like in SPR1 his value range should only be the nuts.
hand2 villain is a donkey
both villains have thousands of hands with you aswell. they likely have a note and you took a line severely reduces the odds you have NF.
first board, its backdoor, maybe he has a note that you havent showdown a bdnf unless you drill flop or wrap turn in which case you called turn and capped your range.
second board he has a note on your sizings, that you bet river with nut flush for pot or pot minus one click, or half pot or whatever.
if youve played thousands of hands with these players and these are the only hands you have issues with your doing well.
