need some tips/thoughts on first time FLO8 session
I played 30 hrs in two day span at orleans in LV, if you were at teh 4-8 tables you prolly know who I am
I ended up being down 300$ or close to it. I only played like 3% of my hands and made 3 bad rookie decisions were I wasnt disciplined at all and lost prolly 60-75$ in those 3 hands.
other then that i have no ****ing clue where I went wrong, I felt being tight at the tables at these loose passive would give me small winrate but it didnt happen, I got blinded off and in several hours even after winning a pot I would be down 40-60% of my BI just from me folding.
everyone at table thought i played too tight but they were playing A LOT of hands and seeing flops cheaply with muiddle connectors and whatnot, i tried to loosen up with hands such as A5o if it was just for teh BB n the dealer or CO but I am jus tpuzzled at how I was such a big loser for having played super tight. and no it cant be variance
any thoughts? I only played hands with A2, A3 or A45 if it was suited or LP only for a BB call, as well as other hands free from BB
did I just play too tight, i thought tightest player at table had a chance to be a small winner??
wentt his past summer and felt i was a little better
someone said with any suited A i should be seeing a flo as long as its not 3 bet infrontof me
felt I playd a tad bit looser, a had some small wins the week I was there but i had a bit loss where i got quarterd sine I thougth my A2 was sstill good in a 800$ pot since it was a loose passive table for that hour and thought they were drawing 2nd nuts low stupid me
I would say in 4/8 game that is passive, play any suited ace. Play any high paired hand (kk,qq). Any hand with 4 Broadway cards (maybe even a 9 if you are in position). 3 wheel cards. Don't raise preflop unless you have an ultra premium and there are a bunch of callers already. Don't bet the flop regardless. Fold a lot after the flop if you don't connect. You only need to scoop one or two big pots every hour to be profitable.
High only hands tend to be much more profitable since you are going to scoop.
I would say in 4/8 game that is passive, play any suited ace. Play any high paired hand (kk,qq). Any hand with 4 Broadway cards (maybe even a 9 if you are in position). 3 wheel cards. Don't raise preflop unless you have an ultra premium and there are a bunch of callers already. Don't bet the flop regardless. Fold a lot after the flop if you don't connect. You only need to scoop one or two big pots every hour to be profitable.
High only hands tend to be much more profitable since you are going to
Anyone trying to play well and win, please ignore this post. There's too much wrong here too even try to correct.
😀 I get what you are saying. But I am not talking about poker theory - 4/8 FLO8 games play so stupid that this is what I have found to work. I play a fair amount of FLO8 at the 4/8, 8/16, 10/20 levels and 4/8 with the rake just isn't high enough to make good play work.
8/16 and 10/20 you can start to be more selective, raise preflop/push people out etc. and I don't do this. But at 4/8 if you don't see a bunch a flops, you are just bleeding between blinds and rake.
A high rake means you need to play tighter, not looser. Each hand has a lower expectation than it would with no rake, pushing some small winning hands into losing territory.
It also means that you want the pots you win to be big ones, so the effective rake percentage is lower.
This means you want to raise your high equity hands (especially if it won't push people out).
One more thing - a suited ace hand with nothing else going for it is not particularly good. If you have a 2 or 3 to go along with it, that would normally make it playable.
It could be that playing looser makes you more likely to have a winning session. But the times you do not win, your losses will be higher.
Very gambly losing players will occasionally, or even often, have a big win - that is what keeps them coming back and is why poker is a great game.
Yeah, you obviously want to raise with good hands. Sometimes in ep you don't want to with A2 or a strong high only hand that plays better many ways.
It is a 4 card game. Almost all AA and A2 are playable in a loose game. However, most high pocket pairs and suited aces are junk. Something like AKK4ds may be playable. KK23 and AQQJds are decent hands. You should usually fold bad A3 and 23. Having a 6, 7, or 8 is bad. Obviously AA28 is a good hand though, but A397 should usually be folded. You can make a high with A2 or A3, and high only hands need to be pretty strong to be playable.
Playing any high pp and any suited ace in FL08 is sort of like playing any ace in holdem.
Yeah, you obviously want to raise with good hands. Sometimes in ep you don't want to with A2 or a strong high only hand that plays better many ways.
It is a 4 card game. Almost all AA and A2 are playable in a loose game. However, most high pocket pairs and suited aces are junk. Something like AKK4ds may be playable. KK23 and AQQJds are decent hands. You should usually fold bad A3 and 23. Having a 6, 7, or 8 is bad. Obviously AA28 is a good hand though, but A397 should usually be folded. You can m
I mean, that guy said a bunch of wrong stuff but you have some large misconceptions too. Here is some solver data for 6 max o8 for Lowjack open raises...it raises every flavor of A379 except the badugi. Here are some hands and percentile rankings:
AA28 any but badugi - 1st percentile
AKK4ds - 2nd percentile
AA28 badugi - 2nd %
KK32ds - 4th %
A379ds - 8th %
KK32 suited king - 9th %
AQQJds - 13th %
A379 suited ace - 14th %
solver opens 24% LJ (no rake)
bad 23 combos are indeed much worse, an ace is a key card!
What solver opens from LJ is not that relevant to a 4/8 game. I haven't played that low in a long time, but in 10/20 O8 there are mostly like 5-way limped pots.
1) if you think hands that are profitable against a table full of GTO bots aren't profitable against 4/8 players I don't know what to tell you
2) understanding the order of hands and what type of hands are better than others is very relevant to any stakes
1) if you think hands that are profitable against a table full of GTO bots aren't profitable against 4/8 players I don't know what to tell you
2) understanding the order of hands and what type of hands are better than others is very relevant to any stakes
I am sure you can find some errors in the examples I gave, but they were not the main point of my post.
It is not at all clear that a GTO open from LJ is playable in a 4/8 game. The GTO opens may be aces, etc. that are intended to steal the blinds or play in position against a wide BB defend range. Some of those hands may not be playable after 4 limpers, much less to cold call a raise that is often strong AA or strong A2.
I am sure you can find some errors in the examples I gave, but they were not the main point of my post.
It is not at all clear that a GTO open from LJ is playable in a 4/8 game. The GTO opens may be aces, etc. that are intended to steal the blinds or play in position against a wide BB defend range. Some of those hands may not be playable after 4 limpers, much less to cold call a raise that is often strong AA or strong A2.
It sounds like you don't understand what an open is. I agree with DDonkey, it's very important to understand the strength (=order) of hands. If I wanted to crush such a game I would start from solver pre-flop play. If there are always 3 limpers to you in the HJ, assign them 80% limping ranges or something and find out what solver limps behind and what it raises. It also makes everything post-flop so much easier.
I didn't know there even were solver programs for O8. Is this fairly new? Where can they be found?
It sounds like you don't understand what an open is. I agree with DDonkey, it's very important to understand the strength (=order) of hands. If I wanted to crush such a game I would start from solver pre-flop play. If there are always 3 limpers to you in the HJ, assign them 80% limping ranges or something and find out what solver limps behind and what it raises. It also makes everything post-flop so much easier.
I think I understand what an open is. He was talking about solver ranges for raising when folded to. That is the way a tough game is played. It really isn't necessary to use a condescending tone and act like I am an idiot.
My point is that relative hand strength for raising when folded to at a table full of pots is different from that in a many way pot.
Like in NLHE, in a many way pot, small pps and suited aces go up in value. This is particularly true with fish who will make random 2-pair and non-nut flushes and stack off with them. In a multiway pot, suited connectors and unsuited high cards go down in value.
Yeah, it would be useful to run a solver with limping ranges and see what hands to limp or raise with. Probably less than 80% ranges. Or you could give the first 3 players 60% limping range, a raiser a 2% raising range, and 2 more players a 30% cold calling range and ask it what to do.
As Chill asked, where are these limit O8 solvers? Do they have 5-card limit O8 solvers and PLO8 solvers?
I didn't know there even were solver programs for O8. Is this fairly new? Where can they be found?
Monkersolver has had o8 for quite a while.
I think I understand what an open is. He was talking about solver ranges for raising when folded to. That is the way a tough game is played. It really isn't necessary to use a condescending tone and act like I am an idiot.
But your comments were strange, borderline idiotic: "It is not at all clear that a GTO open from LJ is playable in a 4/8 game". For me open (=open raising) means exactly raising in an non-VPIP:ed pot. Hence there is no possibility to open if there are limpers or a raiser before you.
My point is that relative hand strength for raising when folded to at a table full of pots is different from that in a many way pot.
Obviously. It's a completely different situation and should be treated as such.
As Chill asked, where are these limit O8 solvers? Do they have 5-card limit O8 solvers and PLO8 solvers?
Monkersolver. You can input the betting rules yourself. No 5-card.
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But your comments were strange, borderline idiotic: "It is not at all clear that a GTO open from LJ is playable in a 4/8 game". For me open (=open raising) means exactly raising in an non-VPIP:ed pot. Hence there is no possibility to open if there are limpers or a raiser before you.
Don't call me idiotic. This is totally inappropriate! You probably just
Obviously, in a 4/8 game with a bunch of limps or limps, a raise, and cold calls, you can't open raise. I am not sure where you get the idea I was saying that. You just go around insulting people on forums and social media.
My point was that what the strongest hands to open raise with is different than the hands to play with several players already in the pot. A solver looking at hands to open raise is going to value more hands with both some low and some high, particularly with aces. Those hands don't play as well 6-way or whatever. Multiway, there is more value to a straight high hand, and less value to a weak low. There are different relative hand strengths in the two situations.
Yes I just. I did not call you idiotic, I called your comment borderline idiotic.
Obviously, in a 4/8 game with a bunch of limps or limps, a raise, and cold calls, you can't open raise. I am not sure where you get the idea I was saying that. You just go around insulting people on forums and social media.
"It is not at all clear that a GTO open from LJ is playable in a 4/8 game." Consider the possibility that me nor DDonkey understood what that was supposed to mean. Judging from his response and what you say you mean something completely different.
I have never gone around insulting people on forums and "social media". I admire your imagination though.
My point was that what the strongest hands to open raise with is different than the hands to play with several players already in the pot. A solver looking at hands to open raise is going to value more hands with both some low and some high, particularly with aces. Those hands don't play as well 6-way or whatever. Multiway, there is more value to a straight high hand, and less value to a weak low. There are different relative hand strengths in the two situations.
Some hands will not play as well multiway as they do HU, that is clear to everyone. Is this what you meant by "It is not at all clear that a GTO open from LJ is playable in a 4/8 game." that you think a solver open range is somehow totally flawed because in your game some monkeys are VPIPing with 60% range? I understand your point but I don't think the conclusion is correct.
... and what you did say was
It is not at all clear that a GTO open from LJ is playable in a 4/8 game. The GTO opens may be aces, etc. that are intended to steal the blinds or play in position against a wide BB defend range. Some of those hands may not be playable after 4 limpers, much less to cold call a raise that is often strong AA or strong A2.
My deepest apologies, but this sounds like you don't understand what an open is. "Some of those hands may not be playable after 4 limpers" some of those hands referring to LJ solver open range. Unless you are again meaning something completely else.
Yes, I understand what an open is. I know you are not "opening" after a bunch of limpers or cold callers in a 4/8 game. I don't know why you insist on misunderstanding me and making issues about terminology.
I used the word "open" in regard to the solver open raise range. I never used it in regards to what you would do with several players in the pot in a 4/8 game. I don't know where you get that from. I don't know why you call me "idiotic" for something I clearly didn't say, and would just be an issue of terminology anyway.
My point was that the hand rankings for a solver to open with against a bunch of pots are not the same as the hand rankings to play like 6-way against a bunch of fish. Particularly a hand with a weak low and a decent high plays better 2 or 3 way than 6-way.
I suggest you avoid using words like "idiotic" is future postings. DD seemed condescending towards me, which I am OK with because he is an expert, from his videos, seen him on high stakes mixed games final tables, etc. I guess you want to pile on insulting me. It is really better to keep the discussions to the topic and avoid personal attacks.
Again, I did not call you idiotic. You brought up the word "idiot" even.
Can you answer my question in the last paragraph? If you understand what an open is, why are you saying
It is not at all clear that a GTO open from LJ is playable in a 4/8 game. The GTO opens may be aces, etc. that are intended to steal the blinds or play in position against a wide BB defend range. Some of those hands may not be playable after 4 limpers, much less to cold call a raise that is often strong AA or strong A2.
It sounds like you don't understand what an open is. I agree with DDonkey, it's very important to understand the strength (=order) of hands. If I wanted to crush such a game I would start from solver pre-flop play. If there are always 3 limpers to you in the HJ, assign them 80% limping ranges or something and find out what solver limps behind and what it raises. It also makes everything post-flop so much easier.
You might find this interesting - I did run a few best response preflop sims a few years back when I started doing o8 work, and happen to have one I can look up - its LJ limps 60% range, never AA (so he has some "good" hands but isn't trapping aces). If it now folds to button Monker never wanted to overlimp, it wants to raise 33%. Compare this to a normal spot where it folds to button in 6 max, Monker opens 39%. So one of my takeaways seeing this is that people overdo it trying to play pots with fish, the main value is that your "normal" hands just become a bit more profitable. In limit poker its also just generally good to raise and try to isolate, if the blinds fold, great, if not, its not a huge deal to play a larger pot in position.
I have no idea what amok feels was confusing about that sentence or how he thought it could have implied that deuceblocker didn't know what "open" meant in context.
"It is not at all clear that a GTO open from LJ is playable in a 4/8 game. "
translation to clarify -
"It is not at all clear that [X] is playable in a 4/8 game [, where there will almost always be limpers before the action gets to you, just because it is a good hand to open raise with in a tighter game].
I have no idea what amok feels was confusing about that sentence or how he thought it could have implied that deuceblocker didn't know what "open" meant in context.
"It is not at all clear that a GTO open from LJ is playable in a 4/8 game. "
translation to clarify -
"It is not at all clear that [X] is playable in a 4/8 game [, where there will almost always be limpers before the action gets to you, just because it is a good hand to open raise with in a tighter game].
Yeah, that troll was really running amok. I specifically used the word "open" to mean how you would play in a tough game as opposed to a multiway pot in a low stakes game. I don't see how this is idiotic. I am pretty precise with terminology, and anyway it is only terminology.
You might find this interesting - I did run a few best response preflop sims a few years back when I started doing o8 work, and happen to have one I can look up - its LJ limps 60% range, never AA (so he has some "good" hands but isn't trapping aces). If it now folds to button Monker never wanted to overlimp, it wants to raise 33%. Compare this to a normal spot where it folds to button in 6 max, Monker opens 39%. So one of my takeaways seeing this is that people overdo it trying to play pots with
Again, this applies to a tough game. For a 4/8 (or 8/16, 10/20 or 15/30) game, as the other poster sort of suggested, you would need to put in fairly loose ranges for limpers, and maybe a tight range for a raiser, and in between ranges for cold callers. Then put in fairly loose range for players to act. It just isn't going to be folded to you in HJ much.
