Returning Player, a couple of questions
I´m a returning player (as the user name says). I used to play mostly NL100 full ring on PokerStars from around 2010 to 2012. So I got a couple of questions:
1) I am certain the level of play has improved with all the new books and coaching opportunities out there, but how much exactly? In 2012 for example, GTO was very much not a thing at NL100, nobody was protecting/balancing their checking ranges (some people checked TPTK for „pot control“ though), and from the turn onwards, big bluffs were not overly common, so bet/fold was a viable turn and river strategy with strong one pair hands as a preflop agressor who has also c-bet the flop. Preflop 4bet/5bet bluffs happened between regulars though. How are things today?
2) I can not log in with my old PokerStars account, and don´t get a „reset password“ mail if I request one. I understand PokerStars is owned by a new company now, but surely they did not just delete the old accounts? I left some money in mine.
3) Where is everybody? I understand old school forums fell out of fashion in the recent years, but what I see on Reddit or Discord doesn´t seem to make up for the loss of trafic that, for instance, this forum seems to have seen in the last 12 years.
Thank you all very much.
4 Replies
I used to play between 2009-2015 (starting underaged). I played SH instead of FR. Then quit until 2024.
I think the most notable changes are the bet and raise sizes.
- 1/3 flop cbet is common now
- everyone opens 2.5x or 2x (ppl who open 3x are likely regfish or fish at this point!)
- GTO says you 3bet to 6,5-9bb IP >>> cbetting IP prints against fish
- GTO says 3bet to 11-13BB OOP >>you don't want to give good odds for IP to play against you
- We are more aware of flop textures as we used to. We check back with overpairs, top pairs and flush draws sometimes, altough back in time these were 100% cbets.
- As you only cbet 1/3 IP you will have to defend more vs check/raises
- You have to c/r more vs. 1/3 cbets
- You call a lot in BB
Finally, you don't bet big with top pair on flushdraw boards most of the time. Back in 2010 you bet big "wanted draws to pay to see next card". But even if you bet big and the flush complete card comes, opponent is going to shove it in your face and you will lose a medium sized pot instead of a small one.
So you are exploitable by that.
I feel the fish play better than they used to, and it manifests mostly in them being tighter:
-they are being tighter preflop
-there are fewer players who limp
-as a result there are fewer multiway pots.
Postflop: they are less likely to call 3barrels with 3. pair. 😃
But they are still passive, have low awareness of relative handstrength and call 3bets with dominated thrash like KT and Ax.
As for bet/folding:
In that way, fish are still fish. They raise only very strong hands, so bet/folding is still the way, unless the guy is an agrofish. It is just that you will end up playing the fish less frequently, because they fold more pre.
I think you should look up some GTOwiz videos. But when GTO is mixed with the oldschool way of thinking, it tends to mess up your play as the old and new knowledge merge in bad ways. As for me CarrotPoker's YT vids helped me a lot to clean up the mess.
Now I'm hard stuck at nl25 and not so well-versed in GTO and theory in general, but these are the stuff I noticed compared to the oldschool ways.
Regarding PS I can't help, as for why 2p2 is nearly dead, dunno.
Thank you very much for your response, I will consider this!
1) significant
2) e-mail/contact support
3) Combination of two things: 1. being way less people play poker/way less popular and 2. more people form their own groups for discussion so a lot more traffic moved to private servers/forums like discord and what not
I played full time until 2014, then came back in 2023. Micros_Isildur has covered a lot of the changes, so a few of my own observations:
Players are much stronger playing without the initiative - Check call and check raise lines are way more balanced. Although I feel a lot of the tighter regs over compensate and lack many of the obvious 3 barrels
Fundamentals across the board are stronger. There are less nodes where players are clueless. Things like turn reraises and river check shoves as bluffs are not 100% value anymore (still underbluffed though)
Reg to fish ratio seems similar to what it was on most sites, although there are way less of the ultra passive calling stations. Players who are stuck in the "never bluff fish" mindset are missing a lot of opportunities on rivers. Pre 2012 a lot of countries were in their first poker boom, so a lot of fish were first time players rather than casuals who have played once a month for a few years.
The preflop 4bet/5bet meta isn't too different, as even pre solver players had manually figured out a lot of the math. I find players flat 4bets more and can play 4bet pots well enough. Most players at micros and small stakes still won't 5bet bluff enough.
On the whole solver has made the games much tougher, but also makes it easier to learn new concepts and to improve your own game.
