Can we get away from this? / BaD ShIp? / Overthinking?
IMO when he 5 bets that small I'm pretty much f'd and may as well ship it. I almost folded, but i'd rather not call a 5-bet oop. So it's fold or shove for me. Does anyone just call the initial 3-bet or is this a 4-bet most of the time with the intention of getting it all in? I've been running bad per EV but feel I'm playing well so maybe overthinking this idk. Feel free to critique my thought process as I'm still getting back into the swing of things.
Thanks for any feedback!
NL Holdem 0.05(BB)
CO ($6.87) [VPIP: 50% | PFR: 27.3% | AGG: 41.2% | Hands: 44]
BTN ($8.70) [VPIP: 33.3% | PFR: 33.3% | AGG: 14.3% | Hands: 21]
SB ($2.63) [VPIP: 16% | PFR: 9.9% | AGG: 20% | Hands: 83]
BB ($5) [VPIP: 25.9% | PFR: 11.1% | AGG: 32.4% | Hands: 83]
HERO ($4.93) [VPIP: 22.2% | PFR: 17.8% | AGG: 26.5% | Flop Agg: 39.1% | Turn Agg: 26.8% | River Agg: 10.3% | 3Bet: 7% | 4Bet: 30% | Fold to 4Bet: 0% | Hands: 1039]
HJ ($5) [VPIP: 29.4% | PFR: 29.4% | AGG: 0% | Hands: 17]
Dealt to Hero: Q♠ Q♥
HERO Raises To $0.17, HJ Folds, CO Folds, BTN Raises To $0.49, SB Folds, BB Folds, HERO Raises To $1.54, BTN Raises To $2.59, HERO Raises To $4.93 (allin), BTN Calls $2.34
Flop ($9.93): 3♣ 2♥ K♠
Turn ($9.93): 3♣ 2♥ K♠ 7♣
River ($9.93): 3♣ 2♥ K♠ 7♣ 6♥
And yes, I didn't top off again lol.
17 Replies
Yes when they 5bet non allin they have AA, occasionally KK and rarely another hand. Investing 1/3 of your stack only to fold seems ridiculous but it's correct.
Fold vs this 5bet size.
You can mix 4bet and call with QQ in this spot.
Interestingly, calling actually more EV than shoving here. Pot odds around 20% and QQ having 18% v AA/KK
But yes, 5b = tell and overfolding is superior with more stack to put in. The 4b/gii with QQ plan is standard so don't worry. When they 5b like this it's actually a fist-pump fold because they just told you their hand and we saved more EV than if we'd called the shove.
Interestingly, calling actually more EV than shoving here. Pot odds around 20% and QQ having 18% v AA/KK
But yes, 5b = tell and overfolding is superior with more stack to put in. The 4b/gii with QQ plan is standard so don't worry. When they 5b like this it's actually a fist-pump fold because they just told you their hand and we saved more EV than if we'd called the shove.
Thank you for your insight. What are we doing on any Kxx or Axx boards?
Sorry, I mispoke. It's not EV it's equity. We have better equity when calling.
I wouldn't do it though. Fold > call > shove. but we should never get to the flop OOP in a 5b pot @100bb so it's not really worth studying.
This could have been avoided with proper sizings. Your 4b is waaay to big... instead 4b to 23bb... when he clicks respond with a call and play some pokers.
Pre Flop: (pot: $3.00) Hero has J♥ J♠
2 folds, Hero raises to $5.00, BTN raises to $16.00, 2 folds, Hero raises to $44.00, BTN raises to $175.82 and is all-in, Hero folds
like this.. lol
Pre Flop: (pot: $3.00) Hero has J♥ J♠
2 folds, Hero raises to $5.00, BTN raises to $16.00, 2 folds, Hero raises to $44.00, BTN raises to $175.82 and is all-in, Hero folds
like this.. lol
I think he allowed you to play perfectly with that hand though. How often are you 4 betting JJ? I'd say for me it's about 65/35 call vs. 4bet depending on opponent/stacks, etc. With QQ I have a bit of a tougher decision.
Sorry, I mispoke. It's not EV it's equity. We have better equity when calling.
I wouldn't do it though. Fold > call > shove. but we should never get to the flop OOP in a 5b pot @100bb so it's not really worth studying.
I mentioned that in the op.
So then Fold > Shove > Call. For me it was fold or shove. I'm just never calling there oop.
This is one of those spots that you thank your opponent for essentially clicking it back pre. When you open, and 4-bet UTG, and they 5-bet click back... at these stakes just about 99.482% of the time it's KK/AA. Exploitative fold.
This is one of those spots that you thank your opponent for essentially clicking it back pre. When you open, and 4-bet UTG, and they 5-bet click back... at these stakes just about 99.482% of the time it's KK/AA. Exploitative fold.
What was weird is that he didn't insta click back which is what normally happens. He thought about it for a bit and seemed to be really making sure the sizing was right xD
I wouldn’t 4bet and I would Fvs 5bet.
Consider A and K high flops are the most frequent. QQ suffers from this truth.
