Grey Area? Redline or Showdown
As I understand it, when a hand reaches the river and one player folds before cards are shown, it’s still counted as non-showdown, redline winnings.
So when you do a great job of dragging villain to the river with well placed value bets
Then you make a tiny bet they should call, but they don’t
Or the river card doesn’t hit their draw & they fold
These seem to have more characteristics of showdown hands than when you triple barrel bluff them off a hand or shove the turn because they’re capped.
Stats
I guess it’s a small thing, but it just always seems like my redline is inflated and my showdown value stats don’t reflect the skill I needed to get to the river.
Not saying I know how to fix it, but maybe folding the river deserves another category
Or maybe you can tell me it ain’t broke
and/or doesn’t matter.
Thoughts
6 Replies
You're overplaying thin value.
I don’t understand this answer and I was counting on you tombos…
I mean the hand goes to showdown before the fold, why is it not considered showdown value.
I guess it makes no difference. It’s just stats. But an overthinker like me yearns to know why
There’s a big difference in shoving the turn and adding it to your redline
and
Getting to the river, breathing on the pot and adding it to your redline
If your goal is to make the red line go up, all you have to do is stop folding.
Redline and blueline aren't meant to measure how good you are at bluffing or value betting. They're just accounting categories.
It's difficult to separate redline into value bets and bluffs for two reasons:
1) The line between bluff and value is fuzzy and context-dependent. It's not easy to define "value bet" algorithmically.
2) You don't know what they had when they made you fold. So when you fold a pair to an unknown hand, does that subtract from your bluff redline or value redline? Also unclear.
As a live player, not worried about changing my game over this at all. I’m just saying it seems to me somewhat flawed. If I did play online, I might consider it more.
I do use a trainer, play a hundred hands and look at the analysis with these categories, as well as others.
I still think that dragging the player to the river showdown before he folds might be a good category on its own.
Separate from creating folds on other streets
Satisfied for now as you say they’re just accounting categories & maybe I can’t glean that much info from these categories anyway.
It always feels a bit weird when you spend three streets setting up a perfect value bet, only for the villain to fold on the river. Even though you had the best hand, that profit goes straight to your Red Line. It can feel like your stats are "inflated" or that your showdown value isn't getting the credit it deserves for the work you did.
But here’s the reality: It ain't broke!
The Red Line is basically a "pressure meter." If you're forcing folds with well-sized value bets, you're winning the "war of attrition." If you want a stat that better reflects your post-flop skill, check your WWSF (Won When Saw Flop). That tracks how often you're taking down pots regardless of whether it hits showdown.
As long as the Green Line (total profit) is moving up, it doesn't really matter which line is doing the heavy lifting. You're just making life miserable for your opponents!
