Covid-19 Discussion

I know what his answer will be because I asked him a similar question a long time ago. His answer was laughable then and it will be laughable this time as well.

I can guarantee it.

I wouldn't and don't expect a serious answer but I feel like sometimes he produces them so maybe.

Oh, it will be a serious (in his mind) answer. The laughable part is when you apply some logic to his answer it falls apart and doesn't make sense.

But we live in hope. He might come up with something that makes sense this time. I doubt it but who knows.

mRNA vaccines are not gene therapy. If you'd like to make a claim, feel free to, but I'm not your personal assistant.

lol nothing like the confidence boost you get when another conspiracy rando shows up once in awhile.

Why do you think it matters what people who are completely uneducated in the medical field find laughable?

For luckbox:

Asking vague questions in order to make nebulous implications is not how you do medical science.

There's hard data and peer-reviewed science on all of these topics. I'm happy to discuss those with you if you'd like, but I'm not going to jump through hoops so you can vaguely imply things when there's not really any mystery around those things.

You don't need to ask "what I think" causes myocarditis. You can simply make a claim about what causes myocarditis and support it with evidence. Why would you ask me what I think instead?

You aren't interested in what's actually true, you just want to play a gotcha game.

If you want to know why myocarditis happens sometimes after vaccination, look it up. If you want to make a claim about it, feel free. Otherwise, I'm not interested in vague implications.

As for the topic I was responding to that you are trying to deflect from by asking unrelated questions:

If the spike protein from the vaccine is harmless then what is happening to injure people who take it?

That was my question. What is the mechanism there?

Basically, elevated cytokine, which is part of the immune system's response to an antigen. In some people (rare, but seems to be slightly more common in adolescent males, for some unknown reason), the antigen is not being cleared as quickly, which can lead to elevated cytokine levels.

Which means, if someone got myocarditis after vaccination, they would most likely have gotten it after a covid infection, and it most likely would have been much worse.

Of course, this can occur with any antigen, so there's nothing specific about the spike protein produced by the vaccine to exacerbate that. The amount of the spike protein produced via the mRNA vaccines is much smaller than the amount encountered from COVID infections, which is why myocarditis from vaccination is typically much more mild and far less common than myocarditis resulting from covid infection.

One reference, but I can produce more if necessary.

Cytokinopathy with aberrant cytotoxic lymphocytes and profibrotic myeloid response in SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccine–associated myocarditis

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/scii...

If you ask questions in good faith with the intention of learning and understanding, I'm happy to help. I don't enjoy gotcha games, though.

Immunitary response can be "excessive" and create some problems, but when that happens following mRNA vaccines we have no reason to think it woulnd't have happened anyway in case of sarscov2 infection basically.

Fact is you still get infected anyway even if vaccinated so if you risked approx 0 from covid to begin with, why subject you to one or more rounds extra of spike exposure? which is why some countries don't recommend the vaccine to minors anymore.

No minor is recommended the covid vaccine in sweden for example

https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/the-...

Taiwan doesn't recommend the new variant-covering vaccine to minors

/The CDC strongly recommends that adults get the XBB vaccine to reduce their health risks and medical costs associated with the winter pandemic.

https://focustaiwan.tw/society/202401050...

Denmark only recommends flu and covid vaccine (which, interestingly , they discuss in the *same page on their public health site, togheter) to the following groups of under65 individuals

The Danish Health Authority recommends that the following people under 65 years of age should be offered vaccination against influenza and covid-19:

People with long-term health conditions, including:
People suffering from chronic lung disease
People suffering from cardiovascular/heart disease (except isolated and well-regulated high blood pressure)
People suffering from diabetes (type 1 or 2)
People with congenital or acquired immunodeficiency, for example people with immunoglobulin defects, people who have received organ or stem cell transplants, people who are undergoing chemotherapy for cancer, or people who are receiving other immunosuppressive treatments
People with impaired respiration due to reduced muscular strength
People suffering from chronic liver or kidney disease
People for whom influenza or covid-19 poses a serious threat to their health due to other chronic diseases, for example people suffering from severe rheumatological disease, severe neurological disease, short bowel syndrome
People who are obese (BMI>35)
People for whom influenza or covid-19 poses a serious threat to their health due to other serious diseases or health conditions, for example people with severe mental disorders, Down’s syndrome or significant substance abuse problems
Pregnant women in the second or third trimester
People living in households with other people with congenital or acquired immunodeficiency or children who are at higher risk of becoming severely ill from influenza or covid-19
People receiving early retirement pension and children aged 2-6 years are also offered free vaccination against influenza. [NOTE: NOT COVID]

https://www.sst.dk/en/english/vaccinatio...

So 3 of the countries that had the fewest excess deaths during the pandemic, which managed covid the best in terms of life loss, are NOT recommending covid vaccines for minors (except some of them do for ultra-fragile very comorbid minors).

This is where the science is at right now

Correct.

Ludicrous. After vaccination, your body is much more prepared to fight off the virus. Yes, you can still become infected, but it will be far less often and far less severe.

You subject yourself to a light exposure to a harmless antigen to reduce the chances of a massive exposure to a virulent pathogen. You can make an argument for adolescent males, but even in that subgroup the benefits outweigh the risks.

Additionally, reducing the spread of the virus is a goal of vaccination, and leaving enormous sub-groups out of the vaccination process completely neuters that.

The reason some countries don't recommend it for everyone anymore is because the risk has lowered, in part because most people got vaccinated already, which makes virus circulation much lower than, say, the US. It is not because of myocarditis risks.

Sure man

/Moderna Vaccine Paused for Young People in Two European Countries
Health authorities in both countries announced that people under certain age cutoffs are now ineligible for the Spikevax COVID-19 shot due to its association with heart inflammation.

Update (November 10): Germany has joined other countries in recommending Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine for people under 30, as research from the Paul Ehrlich Institute, Germany’s vaccine authority, found rates of heart inflammation were higher after the Moderna vaccine than after Pfizer/BioNTech’s, reports Reuters.

Update (November 9): The French health advisory body Haute Autorite De Sante announced yesterday it recommends Pfizer’s Comirnaty vaccine for those under 30 years of age as a study found the risk for heart inflammation in this population is 5 times lower than for Moderna’s Spikevax vaccine, Reuters reports.

Update (October 15, 2021): According to Reuters, some countries are only administering one dose of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in children and teenagers out of concern over possible rare cardiovascular side effects, which are more common after the second shot than the first. These include Norway, South Africa, and the United Kingdom.

Update (October 11): According to Reuters, the Danish Health Agency has retracted its statement about pausing the Moderna vaccine for those under 18 years old, and is in fact still using both Moderna’s and Pfizer’s vaccines in this age group.

Update (October 8, 2021): Finland’s health agency announced yesterday that it is suspending use of Moderna’s Spikevax shot in males under 30 years of age, who will be offered the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine instead, the Associated Press reports.

https://www.the-scientist.com/denmark-sw...

Gorgonian in sweden it is not even LEGAL to administer covid vaccines to healthy minors currently, and they specifically cite myocarditis as the reason why.

Also this was in 2022

Sweden has decided against recommending COVID vaccines for kids aged 5-11, the Health Agency said on Thursday, arguing that the benefits did not outweigh the risks.

Sweden registered more than 40,000 new cases on Jan. 26, one of the highest daily numbers during the pandemic, despite limited testing. While the fourth wave has seen daily infection records shattered, healthcare is not under the same strain as during previous waves.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swe...

So not because "they have cases under control" lol.

They NEVER RECOMMENDED IT TO UNDER12

I'm at work so I'll get to this a little later.

Edit to add lol ^^

These show why they paused it after the correlation was discovered, not why they don't currently recommend it. It also shows that they then decided to exclusively use the one with lower risk of side effects. That doesn't support your statement at all.

But here are the reasons Sweden's recommendations differ from ours:

The Reason Sweden Isn’t Vaccinating Kids 5–11 Against Covid, Explained
Vaccine guidelines vary between countries. That’s normal.

JACKIE FLYNN MOGENSEN

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/202...

Yes that's a blog, but sources are linked.

Why did you put something I didn't say in quotes? I said in part because they are highly vaccinated. Don't be dishonest.

Holy cow.

Your answer is a propoganda leaflet. Lolololololol

Thanks for confirming what I said to Luckbox. Only this time it's even more laughable.

You wrote virus circulation was much lower when those countries didn't recommend vaccines to minors. That's simply not the case. The virus was everywhere, as in any other it eventually hit everyone and will hit everyone, every year, forever, like the other 4 HCoV (human coronaviridae) which we labelled as colds decades ago.

Handwaving away all those references clearly listed at the bottom isn't good enough, but, as I said, what a person completely uneducated in the medical field finds laughable is utterly irrelevant.

But we so appreciate your valuable contribution.

Yes, it was lower. Lower than the US. Because most of the population was vaccinated.

https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/parents...

Parents taking children abroad to vaccinate against Covid-19

Some Swedish parents are travelling abroad to vaccinate their children against Covid-19, Swedish Radio News reports.

After the Public Health Authority stopped recommending the vaccine, even for older children, it's not possible for parents to get their children vaccinated here.

"If the vaccine can benefit my child, I will go and do it," says one mother who took her child to Germany for the jab.

I asked for a citation saying that it was illegal, not that it was difficult.

I don't know why you want to lie about this, or if you are just misinformed, but cases spiked in sweden more than in the USA with omicron in early 2022, and sweden not only did not recommended the vaccine to minors, it made it illegal for them to take it if they were healthy, under 12, in jan 2022

Pink is sweden the other is the USA

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/cor...

man CAN'T GET, physicians can't inoculate it, they need to travel abroad to get it, how is that not illegal lol.

If a drug isn't explicitly approved for some use on minors, it's illegal to give it to minors in Sweden and most other countries. There is no "off labeling" for minors in normal countries.

Edit: nm, no you can't have that point, you're just wrong. We were talking about late 2021, not 2022 (according to all of the things you cited quoted below), where you can clearly see pink is lower on your graph.

Even your snippet from the swedish radio station was from a time when Sweden is clearly lower on the graph.

Also:
You've repeated your claim of it being illegal, though, and I'm still waiting for a citation on that.

You don't know the difference between can't get and illegal? If you mean "can't get," say "can't get." You have cited a radio station saying they couldn't get their child vaccinated so they went to another country. That does not prove it's illegal. At the most, it shows some people had trouble getting their child vaccinated. That is materially different from it being illegal.

It is not illegal in Sweden.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/health-...

The Christian Democrat Minister of Social Affairs Jacob Forssmed recently stated that there were no legal barriers for children and adolescents to have the COVID-19 vaccine in Sweden.

“The regions are free to offer this as a service”, he told reporters at a press conference.

Stop. Arguing. With right wing nutjobs.

Completely divorced from reality