Covid-19 Discussion
Has the wisdom and courage to realize that the cure has now become worse than the disease. It's time to open up. Stop moving the ball.
Hospital systems have not been overwhelmed.
Ventilators are not in shortage.
Treatments are being developed.
There is no cure or vaccine. This is not going away for four years.
The devastation of the cure:
Suicide rates picking up.
Massive economic devastation which causes depression, anxiety, obesity, again increase in suicide rates and directly impacts poorer economic areas.
Alcohol sales up 51%.
Domestic Abuse on the uprise
Child abuse on the uprise.
Hospitals that do not have COVID related issues are forced to lay off doctors and nurses as there are not enough patients to economically support it, meaning they won't have the staff to deal with COVID outbreaks.
Michael Avenatti gets released from prison
We all did our part. We sheltered (here in Pennsylvania for 5 weeks already).
Open the office buildings. Open the hair saloons. Get rid of stupid mask laws.
Continue to monitor outbreaks and in areas hospital systems become threatened, reenact tougher guidelines.
LET'S GET BACK TO WORK!
And stop shaming people that want common sense solutions. Waiting for a vaccine is stupid and unpractical.
Keep telling people to doublemask for covid, or that eating steaks is heavily carcinogenic, or that raw milk is extremely dangerous, that will surely help convincing them the other health suggestions you make about vaccination for measles and the like are trustable.
Keep telling people to doublemask for covid, or that eating steaks is heavily carcinogenic, or that raw milk is extremely dangerous, that will surely help convincing them the other health suggestions you make about vaccination for measles and the like are trustable.
Keep making things up I said, I guess.
You also seem to be confusing "the left" and "medical science" a lot up in here. You should work on that.
I dunno, I could see it. Try this?
And it's all because of what the left did during covid.
Destroying trust in public health entities by lying repeatedly in order to remove constitutional rights or suppress freedom in general has consequences.
And it's up to us on the right with common sense now to try to mend the disaster you guys on the left created.
Anyone who supported masking kids in schools in 2022 (among many other things) has 0% chance of talking succesfully with an antivaxer about anything, for the rest of his life.
I can t
Anyone that doesn't think their vote counts needs to read this nonsense.
I dunno, I could see it. Try this?
Ok this i can read.
Are you really, seriously, conflating a complete opposition to vaccine mandates, with anti-vaccinism?
I do oppose all vaccine mandates as do approx half EU countries (for children).
I thought you were linking me governing republicans not making vaccines available or not recommending vaccinations that are useful through official channels, while here the issue is they
are against vaccine mandates? being against vaccine mandates isn't being antivaxer, it is being pro freedom which is the most important thing in society above everything else (yes above health as well, obviously) for anyone on the actual right.
It's truly incredible to read that being against vaccine mandates is antivaxxing or causes people to distrust vaccines.
Scandinavia, the UK, Spain, Portugal, Swtizerland had no vaccine mandates in school in 2019, would you call all those countries leaders from all governing parties in decades antivaxers???
This was in 2018, for children in schools, notice how many countries *only recommended* vaccinations, that's the normal way to do it, how against freedom can you be to want to mandate more than very state-heavy countries do mandate?
OK, awesome. Let's apply that "what other countries do" to gun legislation. I could accept that trade-off.
OK, awesome. Let's apply that "what other countries do" to gun legislation. I could accept that trade-off.
Biggest deflection in months. Well done.
So now that you discovered that the normal state of things in normal countries , even some which are higher than the USA in human development index, is not to mandate vaccines in schools, which you erroneously considered an antivaxxer position, you completly change topic.
So let we see if we are clear: being totally against any vaccine mandate is perfectly compatible with being pro vaccination, as proven by very civilized countries not mandating any vaccination in schools.
Agreed?
Then we can talk about gun control in the gun control thread and international comparisons with the USA as much as you want.
Biggest deflection in months. Well done.
So now that you discovered that the normal state of things in normal countries , even some which are higher than the USA in human development index, is not to mandate vaccines in schools, which you erroneously considered an antivaxxer position, you completly change topic.
So let we see if we are clear: being totally against any vaccine mandate is perfectly compatible with being pro vaccination, as proven by very civilized countries not mandating any vaccina
Could be in theory, but not in this case. The current right wing is certainly anti-vax. You might not be, but the average maga is. Look at BJ for instance. Although I certainly don't believe even you are genuinely concerned about "mah freedom" here. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I haven't heard a peep about kids required to get vaccination for my entire lifetime up until now. We did perfectly fine. We effectively wiped out a number of diseases in this country. But the stupids came out in droves during covid and here we are, going after every vaccine. We've already seen measles popping up and there will be more.
Are people still doing it, even with a mere recommendation as opposed to a mandate? What are the actual vaccination rates for those countries?
Maybe these Europeans are just better at making good choices.
Americans aren't great at behaving themselves. Just look at our incarceration numbers.
Could be in theory, but not in this case. The current right wing is certainly anti-vax. You might not be, but the average maga is. Look at BJ for instance. Although I certainly don't believe even you are genuinely concerned about "mah freedom" here. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I haven't heard a peep about kids required to get vaccination for my entire lifetime up until now. We did perfectly fine. We effectively wiped out a number of diseases in this country. But the stupids
BJ is a covid vax antivaxxer, no idea if he is against measle, polio and so on vaxxes as well.
You should have heard peeps before if you cared about the topic, because it was a bipartisan extremist (horseshoe) topic before covid. Hippies on one side and fanatical religious rightwing ppl on the other side mostly (akin to homeschooling in a way).
this was in 2015
Worst coverage rates where in Colorado
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzb...
The original Wakefield bullshit paper (which "experts" kept in journals for maaaany years, helping the cause of antivaxxers) was picked up by the radical left well before it was picked up by the radical right.
It was the "nature is supreme", extremist environmental conscious leftists who were antivaxxers at the beginning. Then far right religious groups.
After covid it's much more on the right ofc and growing, and i already told you the obvious reason why: the right *CORRECTLY* now knows the CDC is full of bullshit, and the left weaponizes medical science to violently impose it's narrative (covid, trans issue and so on).
So when you confron the fact that you know, for a certainty, they completly make up pseudo medical science and claims to justify their political preferences, it is NOT SURPRISING that you don't believe even the true part. Not surprising at all.
When the people telling you measle vaccines work are telling you men can get pregnant and masking 3 years old is necessary to save grandma, are you surprised you don't believe the measle vaccine part if you aren't a leftist?
Are people still doing it, even with a mere recommendation as opposed to a mandate? What are the actual vaccination rates for those countries?
Maybe these Europeans are just better at making good choices.
Americans aren't great at behaving themselves. Just look at our incarceration numbers.
Very high for some vaccines, not that much for others. Flu vaccine coverage is very low in europe in general for example (and mandated in some places in the USA iirc).
I think the main, life-saving ones tend to be very high, but it's not the same in every country and not the same for every specific vaccine.
It's 4 years to this day that Italy implemented the worst peacetime policy in the history of western societies: lockdowns with militaries in the streets because an airborne virus with less than 0.1% lethality among the under65 appeared.
There is a bit of a disconnect with you on this point, Luc.
On March 11, 2020...... how much was know about the C19 virus to say this strategy of being overly cautious.....just in case...... was the worst policy ever! of all western civilization?
[QUOTE=King Spew;58493460]There is a bit of a disconnect with you on this point, Luc.
On March 11, 2020...... how much was know about the C19 virus to say this strategy of being overly cautious.....just in case...... was the worst policy ever! of all western civilization?[/QUOTE]
During peacetime yes.
We already knew the lethality by age bracket and Bergamo cases had already peaked by then. We already had the diamond princess ship in quarantine since like 6 weeks with absolutely nothing happening to the working age crew and only a few deaths among the very elder passengers (median age of passengers was like 62).
And that was when we had 0 clue about treatment so it was already the worst case scenario, ie it was certain lethality could only drop from that with more knowledge. For example in Bergamo (and Madrid, and NYC and so on) in march everyone intubated too much, which actually killed more than necessary.
Already by mid April it was known that actual intubation was needed less (which is why we never needed the zillions of ventilators some people thought we did).
But most of all it wasn't the first airborne epidemic in human history lol. We had plans in place for a virus with a lethality up to 2% across demographic groups (=spanish flu level), and they didn't include lockdowns.
So going against the totality of human accumulated knowledge on the topic, worldwide, for decades/centuries, because of panick, doing something that had no precedent in human history... was indeed the worst policy mistake in peacetime ever, especially when assessed on its damages.
Lockdowns did much worse to society than covid itself to be clear, like not even close.
We don't even know the full extent of the damage COVID does now.
Pretending we knew withing the first little bit is nothing but revisionist history. And particularly egregious revisionist history at that.
Stop pretending the lethality rate in a certain demographic is all that matters.
You also continually make the mistake of comparing damage done by "lockdowns" to a do nothing and no harm happens scenario instead of the correct controls: 1) do nothing and millions more die, or 2) no forced/recommendations of stay at home and people stay home because it's the wise thing to do anyway.
In short, you're engaging in both revisionist history and horrifically biased analysis of the effects of the decisions. Not a good combination.
You should try doing it with a little less pompousness given that you're embarrassingly wrong as a result.
Lockdowns for anyone under 55-60 was the most cowardly monkey see monkey do decision humanity ever took in peace time.
"We still don't know full extent of covid damage" therefore rationalizing destroying the economy because apparently the dirty bath water was so dangerous it had to be thrown out with the baby.
Our immune system is out there killing cancers in our body all the time, yet 4 years later people will justify blowing up our economy because "we don't know anything" about a virus that an immune system for under 60 healthy human gets rid of easily within days.
It's called they were massively, and enormously wrong.
We don't even know the full extent of the damage COVID does now.
Pretending we knew withing the first little bit is nothing but revisionist history. And particularly egregious revisionist history at that.
Stop pretending the lethality rate in a certain demographic is all that matters.
You also continually make the mistake of comparing damage done by "lockdowns" to a do nothing and no harm happens scenario instead of the correct controls: 1) do nothing and millions more die, or 2) no forced/recommen
Lethality rate is what matters when you put people under actual house arrest yes.
And it's not "lockdown" with scary quotes, it's actual lockdowns, I am taking Italian lockdowns.
It's armed militaries roaming the roads and stopping people. NATIONWIDE. For 72 days.
It's fascism and all the people responsible should have been hanged for crimes against humanity.
Again to be clear j am taking ITALIAN LOCKDOWNS that's what I mentioned
Today is the anniversary of that tragedy without precedents in peace time.
Doing nothing would have resulted in exactly the same damage from the disease itself. Everyone eventually got COVID anyway, not a single life was saved by Italian lockdowns. Not one.
Not that it matters, as you can never house arrest an innocent no matter which good you can accomplish without exception. Especially children.
If you even think you can house arrest a child to achieve some higher goal then you are a monster worse than people who want slavery legal and we have to fight a civil war to solve the problem
Lethality rate is what matters when you put people under actual house arrest yes.
And it's not "lockdown" with scary quotes, it's actual lockdowns, I am taking Italian lockdowns.
It's armed militaries roaming the roads and stopping people. NATIONWIDE. For 72 days.
It's fascism and all the people responsible should have been hanged for crimes against humanity.
Again to be clear j am taking ITALIAN LOCKDOWNS that's what I mentioned
Today is the anniversary of that tragedy without precedents in peace t
So your solution to the two major problems with your analysis was just to deny they exist.
Lethality is not the only issue, and doing nothing would not have resulted in the same outcome. Both of those ideas are hilarious naive and a good example of why nobody takes you seriously.
And you can talk specifically about Italian lockdowns if you want, but nobody else was, and you interjected yourself into the middle of this voluntarily. You may have a point about the lockdowns in Italy (I doubt it, but whatever). However, none of that crap happened here.
So your solution to the two major problems with your analysis was just to deny they exist.
Lethality it's not the only issue, and don't nothing world not have resulted in the same outcome. Both of those ideas are hilarious naive and a good example of why nobody takes you seriously.
There was the totality of accumulated worldwide knowledge in case of an airborne epidemy, and it didn't prescribe lockdowns.
What includes WHO 2019 pandemic plans. In case the Spanish flu or something equally threatening resurfaced.
We rapidly understood COVID was far LESS serious than the Spanish flu. That should have been enough to treat it like any serious flu season, IE letting most people live fully normally, no change at all, and giving away some recommendations for at risk individuals.
Like Sweden did more or less, with far less lethality than Italy.
The existence of Sweden will forever block you guys from claiming "we couldn't know!!!".
They knew and reacted normally. Most other places became fascist to various degrees. Italy more than most.
And fascism is a crime against humanity at that scale
So your solution to the two major problems with your analysis was just to deny they exist.
Lethality is not the only issue, and doing nothing would not have resulted in the same outcome. Both of those ideas are hilarious naive and a good example of why nobody takes you seriously.
And you can talk specifically about Italian lockdowns if you want, but nobody else was, and you interjected yourself into the middle of this voluntarily. You may have a point about the lockdowns in Italy (I doubt it, but
I was and king asked me about that so I elaborated on that.
Follow the thread, i said after what was done it's not surprising people don't believe authorities anymore.
What happened in the USA was different. Less fascist lockdowns, but schools closed for longer in democrat area than even in super fascist Italy.
Do you defend school closures in 2021?
Gorgon,
ge...] If you don't admit this was a crime against humanity, something people should go in jail for life for (or get the DP depending on the jurisdiction) then we don't have much else to say.
If you don't understand that 755 completely unjustified school closures *after an effective vaccine was available* are all democrat crimes against truth, and dismantled trust in public health authorities for at least a generation, then you are lost.
Gorgon, ge...] If you don't admit this was a crime against humanity, something people should go in jail for life for (or get the DP depending on the jurisdiction) then we don't have much else to say.
If you don't understand that 755 completely unjustified school closures *after an effective vaccine was available* are all democrat crimes against truth, and dismantled trust in public health authorities for at least a generation, then you are lost.
I could have told you a long time ago we don't have much else to say. You're so off base it's actually comical. Those numbers mean nothing. School closes here every year because of the flu and has as long as I've been here. It's absolutely unsurprising that it would close for covid. You have no idea what you're talking about.
The idea that you would want to jail someone for that decision is pure insanity. Absolute nonsense and a clear indication you are so far out of your lane that you need to take a step back.
And btw if you think for a second I live anywhere near anything at all "democrat" you're wrong.
Just ludicrous.
Nothing, barely know who he is, I have not really been following US politics since Trump got de-elected. From what others here are saying, he sounds like a tit.
I only followed him very well because he was a true hero for people against lockdowns like me, having signed in September 2020 (as governor of Florida) the most beautiful use of power I have seen in decades: an executive order preventing local governments from locking down private businesses in any way or form.
Power used to prevent abuses of power by other entities, is the best power.
That alone makes him a strictly better human being morally than anyone who, at that date, still asked for, or enacted, private business closures because of COVID.
Except for the left he is worse than Trump
I only followed him very well because he was a true hero for people against lockdowns like me, having signed in September 2020 (as governor of Florida) the most beautiful use of power I have seen in decades: an executive order preventing local governments from locking down private businesses in any way or form.
Power used to prevent abuses of power by other entities, is the best power.
That alone makes him a strictly better human being morally than anyone who, at that date, still asked for, or ena
OK I'm not going to get into a Covid debate here but why you'd be against enacting extreme measures to contain a pandemic that kills people is beyond me.
