2024 ELECTION THREAD
The next presidential race will be here soon! Please see current Bovada odds. Thoughts?
Compare Orban and Trump, actual policies and way of governing.
It's a stretch to call Orban a fascist but it's a joke to call Trump one.
If you don't obsessively use power as a control freak you are as far from fascism as you can be to begin with.
In general if you don't give a **** to govern and control people you not only can't be a fascist, you are inherently anti fascist
You have your own ideas for what constitutes the defining feature(s) of various political ideologies, which are not shared by most other people or the dictionary. We'll add this to the list of Luciomworld definitions.
There was no insurrection attempt at all not even vaguely. The most armed demographic in America would be armed, to their teeth, in an attempted insurrection.
There was an emotionally driven violent riot participated by severely disgusting people who, if they acted violently, should all get the death penalty, but you need to have lost all understanding of words to claim that was an attempt at insurrection.
I understand you consider maga a bunch of idiots but even for their standards, the vegan shaman leading the insurrection? REALLY? Jfc the bad faith has no limits
Outside of rolling dice, flipping coins, or dealing a randomly shuffled deck of cards, most events are non repeatable. Yet we still manage to do things such as gamble on sports, or assess insurance risk, or predict the weather, or many other activities that require us to assign a probability to the occurrence of a non repeatable event.
Your argument basically boils down to "your house didn't get robbed or burn down so you were wrong to get home contents insurance". I find it difficult to believe that I need to explain this to someone who has supposedly made an income from gambling.
You have your own ideas for what constitutes the defining feature(s) of various political ideologies, which are not shared by most other people or the dictionary. We'll add this to the list of Luciomworld definitions.
A person who governed 4 years and had 2, chances to use emergency powers to do close to whatever he wanted (BLM mass riots, COVID) and didn't, proved to the world he is as far from fascism as you can be.
Objectively most politicians worldwide proved they flirt with fascism infinitely more than Trump. Trump is decisively in the top 5% of the less fascists leaders in western history.
It's not that the label doesn't fit him technically, it's that he blatantly does systematically the opposite of what fascism is. In actions.
His words are far more fascists I agree (nostalgia, nationalism and so on).
Actions? Hard to find someone less fascist.
Outside of rolling dice, flipping coins or shuffling a deck of cards, most events are non repeatable. Yet we still manage to do things such as gamble on sports, or assess insurance risk, or predict the weather, or any other activities that require us to assign a probability to the occurrence of a non repeatable event.
Your argument basically boils down to "your house didn't get robbed so lol you for getting home contents insurance".
My argument is your neighborhood doesn't get robbed in 40 years, when are you going to re assess ?
Events can usually be compared. You assess odds for 500 different matches of the same sport, tens of Senate races every 2 years and so on.
But a low probability event during a presidency? This is like odds of a nuclear war happening changing after the Obama Iran deal. People can claim whatever, and there is no way ex post to verify if the prediction made sense or not.
When HRC lost people who gave her 99% win chance were still around claiming "eh you know what that's the 1%".
I meant that people who plan to vote for Jill Stein don't care if her campaign is serious about trying to create the change that it claims to want.
In this environment, any idiot who sucks up a percentage point is a serious threat to swing a close state in one direction or the other.
Republicans have also historically funded many green party candidates, because they know they only siphon votes from dems.
A person who governed 4 years and had 2, chances to use emergency powers to do close to whatever he wanted (BLM mass riots, COVID) and didn't, proved to the world he is as far from fascism as you can be.
Objectively most politicians worldwide proved they flirt with fascism infinitely more than Trump. Trump is decisively in the top 5% of the less fascists leaders in western history.
It's not that the label doesn't fit him technically, it's that he blatantly does systematically the opposite of what
Ok, so you agree that his rhetoric is pretty fascist, that's some progress I guess. So even if we disagree on everything else here, hopefully you can see why someone who routinely engages in fascist rhetoric can be reasonably described as a fascist.
My argument is your neighborhood doesn't get robbed in 40 years, when are you going to re assess ?
Events can usually be compared. You assess odds for 500 different matches of the same sport, tens of Senate races every 2 years and so on.
But a low probability event during a presidency? This is like odds of a nuclear war happening changing after the Obama Iran deal. People can claim whatever, and there is no way ex post to verify if the prediction made sense or not.
When HRC lost people who gave her
Right, so when we don't have a large sample size, so we work with what we have. On the one hand, we have a candidate who routinely engages in fascist rhetoric, and tried everything in his power to retain the presidency and avoid relinquishing power when he lost the election. On the other hand we have a candidate who doesn't and didn't.
Also, as Rococo keeps pointing out, this is not a binary outcome - firing pot shots at a dam might not make it collapse immediately, but it will weaken the structure and make it more susceptible to collapse in future, especially when a more competent "Trump" comes along.
Ok, so you agree that his rhetoric is pretty fascist, that's some progress I guess. So even if we disagree on everything else here, hopefully you can see why someone who routinely engages in fascist rhetoric can be reasonably described as a fascist.
Fascist rethoric, minimal interest in government, it defuses actual fascists galvanizing them then throwing them paper bones and they keep clapping, while not doing almost anything , we are very close to perfection aren't we?
Right, so when we don't have a large sample size, so we work with what we have. On the one hand, we have a candidate who routinely engages in fascist rhetoric, and tried everything in his power to retain the presidency and avoid relinquishing power when he lost the election. On the other hand we have a candidate who doesn't and didn't.
Also, as Rococo keeps pointing out, this is not a binary outcome - firing pot shots at a dam might not make it collapse immediately, but it will weaken the structu
Democrats enacted lockdowns, that was the actual test for fascism. They lost and we don't forget.
That said Harris has to be president if the Senate is Republican, for reasons explained many times, so I am ok with that.
But lol democrats lost the battle about fascism for generations after lockdowns. They cannot be salvaged, like anyone else worldwide who was in favor of lockdowns and didn't bend the knee in shame asking for forgiveness afterwards (and leaving public life forever).
That was the biggest challenge since WW2 and democrats lost it miserably. There is no coming back from that, no forgiveness, no acceptance of them (and everyone else pro lockdown) as legitimate parties in a democracy and so on
There was no insurrection attempt at all not even vaguely. The most armed demographic in America would be armed, to their teeth, in an attempted insurrection.
There was an emotionally driven violent riot participated by severely disgusting people who, if they acted violently, should all get the death penalty, but you need to have lost all understanding of words to claim that was an attempt at insurrection.
I understand you consider maga a bunch of idiots but even for their standards, the vegan sha
The literal definition of insurrection is the violent uprising, to overthrow a government. There was a violent uprising on Jan 6th with the intent to block the certification of the vote. There was a fake elector scheme in place to throw the election to Trump, and undermine American democracy. Democracy is the cornerstone of American politics, so undoing that qualifies as overthrowing the government.
By every definition, it was an insurrection. But if that makes you uncomfortable w/ facing the truth, you can just call it a failed coup attempt also. That's fine.
😉
Pretty much. Except when Dems say that Trump attacked American democracy, we all saw it happen live on TV. And Luciom is memory holing Trump’s incitement to violence, telling them to fight like hell or they’ll never get their country back, telling Mike Pence to “do the right thing” as a mob was swarming the capital, waiting 3 hours before he called the national guard, having his associates call senators as the capital was being raided by trump supporters, calling them heroes continually since th
You left out the part we he tells crowd
“PEACEFULLY & PATRIOTICALLY march to the Capital”
Trump deserves to assume responsibility for creating the environment for this to happen and for not tweeting earlier for them to go home. Comparing Jan 6th to 9/11 or Peral Harbor is a joke. This was the worst organized insurrection seen .
The rhetoric on both sides should stop and if you say how can anyone vote for a mad man I would agree with you but how anyone can vote for a candidate with no plan and petrified to speak to anyone without a teleprompter is not qualified to lead . Heck I saw Ben Shapiro on Fox news Sunday and JD Vance on MTP as well as Gavin Newsom who will sit down with Hannity for an hour and hold there own but god forbid Kamal go on MTP
Maybe we should put a max of 50 replies per 24 hours in each thread to enhance the quality of posting and stop the nonsense spam ….
Ps: I didn’t use the word “crazy”, hopefully the word nonsense isn’t considered an insult too ….
For someone petrified to speak to anyone without a teleprompter, she sure did a number on your idol without a teleprompter.
The idea that the attempt was illegal is still TBD, that isn't an objective fact, which is why proceedings are ongoing (and just restarted recently) and he isn't in jail (yet?).
Can't claim someone is a criminal until a court says so in general.
And can't claim that claiming someone is guilty of an exceptionally serious crime, before you have a court confirming that, has no consequences in society.
Glad you confirm trump is a convict and shouldn’t be vote for …
You left out the part we he tells crowd
Trump deserves to assume responsibility for creating the environment for this to happen and for not tweeting earlier for them to go home. Comparing Jan 6th to 9/11 or Peral Harbor is a joke. This was the worst organized insurrection seen .
Gotchya, so if I tell people that their country is being stolen from them, that they need to fight like hell, that Mike Pence is letting the election be stolen from them, that their country will be destroyed if it’s stolen, and then as they are storming the capital that was being occupied by senators and congresspeople, watching police being attacked from inside my office, as my family and advisors are literally BEGGING me to call the national guard, I’m absolved by one time saying “peacefully”.
Yeah no I bet you don’t know anything at all about J6 except fox news talking points.
The election is in 50 days. The seven toss up states might grow to eight depending on what margin of error you use. Iowa (IA) in polling is very close to being taken out of Trumps column and made a toss up, especially with the huge undecided there.
The IA poll is 47% Trump to 43% Kamala with 7% 3rd Party (including RFK Jr) and 3% undecided. And this is the only poll in IA since 7/21. In IA RFK Jr. is not on the ballot though. It is in progress so it is unclear whether he has given up on IA or it is still a possibility.
You might want to throw in Alaska (AK) as well. Their recent poll (the only poll since 7/21) has Kamala trailing by 5% with RFK at 4% and 7% undecided.
I already consider Florida (FL) a swing state with Kamala trailing by 4.3% at 538.com with 5.3% undecided/3rd party. The problem is that Trump is at 49.5%... There have been 3 polls in September with Kamala trailing by 3% , 2% and most recently 6% with Trump at about 50% on average. If things change in FL because of the young vote uprising due to Taylor Swift and the fact that there is an Abortion measure on the ballot it could be a possibility.
There was no insurrection attempt at all not even vaguely. The most armed demographic in America would be armed, to their teeth, in an attempted insurrection.
There was an emotionally driven violent riot participated by severely disgusting people who, if they acted violently, should all get the death penalty, but you need to have lost all understanding of words to claim that was an attempt at insurrection.
I understand you consider maga a bunch of idiots but even for their standards, the vegan sha
Are you under the impression that an insurrection has to be pre-planned? I mean there is strong evidence of pre-planning from the proud boys, but it’s actually incredibly wrong to say that an insurrection has to be pre-planned. No legal scholar will ever affirm this definition of insurrection. A coup and an insurrection are not the same thing ffs.
By the way many of the tens of thousands of Trump supporters there were out of state, so bringing their AR15s is probably not feasible. There were pipe bombs planted though.
Are you under the impression that an insurrection has to be pre-planned? I mean there is strong evidence of pre-planning from the proud boys, but it’s actually incredibly wrong to say that an insurrection has to be pre-planned. No legal scholar will ever affirm this definition of insurrection. A coup and an insurrection are not the same thing ffs.
A coup is an attempt to take the existing power structure. An insurrection is an attempt to defy existing power structure and do what you want regardless of their existence
Armed maga deciding a neighborhood or county or state is independent from Biden and fighting toward that outcome would be an insurrection. A vegan shaman and people escorted by police within the capitol building after a riot outside of it aren't an insurrection, never were an insurrection, they have no element of an insurrection.
The few people who tried to kidnap members of Congress or whatnot, sure get them for conspiracy to overthrow and whatever, but jfc the vegan shaman and his crowd
The IA poll is 47% Trump to 43% Kamala with 7% 3rd Party (including RFK Jr) and 3% undecided. And this is the only poll in IA since 7/21. In IA RFK Jr. is not on the ballot though. It is in progress so it is unclear whether he has given up on IA or it is still a possibility.
You might want to throw in Alaska (AK) as well. Their recent poll (the only poll since 7/21) has Kamala trailing by 5% with RFK at 4% and 7% undecided.
I already consider Florida (FL) a swing state with Kamala trailing by
I agree alaska seems in play now
A coup is an attempt to take the existing power structure. An insurrection is an attempt to defy existing power structure and do what you want regardless of their existence
Armed maga deciding a neighborhood or county or state is independent from Biden and fighting toward that outcome would be an insurrection. A vegan shaman and people escorted by police within the capitol building after a riot outside of it aren't an insurrection, never were an insurrection, they have no element of an insurrec
You seriously have no clue what happened and are parroting blatant lies. First of all, the first people to break in were NOT escorted by police. Secondly, the cops being extremely overrun made the decision to lead the insurrectionists TOWARDS THE SENATE CHAMBERS because that was the opposite direction from where hundreds of congressional people, their families, and their staffers were. They had to be holed up because rabid Trump supporters were attempting to “stop the steal”. This actually tells me you never looked into this and are trying to coast off pure rhetoric. Actually disgusting post.
An insurrection can also be trying to interfere with an official proceeding with force or INTIMIDATION of force. So you are dead wrong about the definition.
