The costs of trans visibility

TIL when radical leftists online do bad things, it's bot used by the right lololololololol

When radical rightists do bad things on twitter I write it off as bots most of the time

I could spam this thread with 100 tweets a day full of the most vile hateful **** you could possibly imagine.

No response to pushing narratives that could potentially get khelif executed though, lolobv

by Elrazor k

Not a good look for trans activists.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/c5yl5lgx010o

BBC Sport

Laura Woods receives 'numerous death threats' over online comment on Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting article

The original OP of this thread spoke of the costs of trans visibility, and how if one is public and trans there is an unrelenting and constant spew of such BS. This is true generally on the internet on many issues and across political spectrum, but the degree of online hatred against trans people is disproportionate. I’m not quite sure why then you think this story is particularly notable for how it looks on trans activists in general. Can I draw the same inference about people advocating anti-trans positions based on those that make anonymous death threats to Dylan mulvaney?

Yeah, I mean, the criticism completely lacks the context of abuse victims generally falling in a repeating pattern. When you are abused you often abuse others. When you get showered with death threats for existing you might reciprocate when lashing out.

I think contextually that will never fly though. There is a distinct lack of empathy for trans individuals.

My aunt awkwardly lambasted a trans individual the other day. mid 70s devote catholic. Had a bunch of pictures of the woman and was showing my mom and I like wow look at this carnival freak. Ironically it came about 12 hours after I had explained to my mom why I knew way too much about trans stuff and the issues they face

He is not. It’s a straightforward answer that you will never get from him.

It’s not my candy that I’m worried about these unstable people taking.

There you go with loaded language. Why does any opposition to trans have to be “hatred?” Why can it not just be people, for a variety of reasons, feel that trans people are wrong whether it be they are mentally ill, easily persuaded by social contagion, etc? I know plenty of people who disagree with allowing surgeons to butcher children as well as permanently sterilize them with drugs who aren’t full with hate; they’re concerned. Why can that not be the case?

idk if i missed this or not but has that also been explained to the thread?

if not then no need to, just the way you phrased it feels like it's something you assume we all know and i remember someone asking you earlier if you were trans and when you were talking about your own struggles and you answered no to that

I didn’t say “any opposition to trans (sic) has to be hateful”. Public trans people unfortunately often experience a torrent of genuine, undebatable, internet hatred. That can be true alongside reasonable and measured critiques.

And you can’t possibly accuse someone of loaded language and follow that up with “butcher children”.

No wonder your previous account was banned.

Ah yes, more allusions to trans people and their allies being mentally unstable.

Well we have objective proof that radical left are mentally ill a lot more than everyone else in society (at least in American data), that's an uncontroversial claim, the controversy is about causality at most (are the mentally ill more attracted to radical leftism for whatever reason, or is radical leftism something that can make you mentally ill often enough? Unclear).

So while being trans isnt a mental illness in any way or form, being an "ally" very strongly correlates to being mentally ill, as all radical leftism does.

Do you not see any hypocrisy in making general statements about the "pro-trans crowd" while complaining about being labeled yourself?

You mean like "those who share their alternate reality" and "allowing surgeons to butcher children"?

"I feel X"
"No, you're wrong. You're actually suffering from mental illness or social contagion."

Gosh, it's difficult to understand why this would cause a strong reaction from some people. 🙄

You are wrong if you do, there are some crazy nazi bastards out there.

I did occasionally report in this forum about that to make it clear to people that's part of the threat we face as a society

As far as I'm aware there is proof that radical left are diagnosed as being mentally ill a lot more but that's a very different thing to there being proof that they are mentally ill a lot more. Selection bias, particularly the difference in stigma attached to mental illness between the left and right, plays a large role in the different rates of diagnosis and I haven't seen any study that does a convincing job of accounting for it (I'm not even sure that there would be any way of accounting for it with any degree of accuracy).

doesn't look like the stigma of mental illness is reduced on the left tbh, especially given the fury by which people want to underline very clearly that transness and mental illness are very distinct things (something i agree with).

Why do you think the stigma of being mentally ill is lower/nonexistant on the left? can't it just be about women being more leftists, especially young women, and more often mentally ill for example?

This is a very leftist source (agenda alliance, can't get very much to the left of it even if you try)

Mental ill health among young women and girls
Three quarters (75%) of mental health issues are established before the age of 24, and young women have emerged as the highest-risk group for mental ill health:

A quarter of young women (25.7%) have self-harmed – more than twice the rate for young men. There is evidence this could be higher and is growing.*
26% of young women experience a Common Mental Disorder, such as anxiety or depression – almost three times more than young men.
1 in 7 young women (16-24) have PTSD (compared with 3.6% of young men).
72% of those in suicide counselling with NSPCC are girls
Suicide is the third most common reason for girls to contact Childline, and the fifth most common for boys

https://www.agendaalliance.org/our-work/...

And as you know, young women are by far the single demographic more often on the radical left (is, self identifying as "very liberal" in the 1 to 5 identification pattern commonly used, with 1 very liberal, 5 very conservative).

This is what we know from data: young women (18-29) are exceptionally more mentally ill than the rest of the population, especially when compared to older men. Young women are very to the left of the population , dramatically so. "allies" of trans people , are almost always people who self identify as very liberal. That cohort is composed of young women much more than random. So "allies of trans people" are much, much more often mentally ill than the general population, and especially of people on the opposite side, who tend to be older men, who are less mentally ill than the average population.

The stigma I was meaning was as much around talking about mental health in general than having a mental illness. I do think there is less stigma around the latter on the left - I can't see a world in which saying you've been diagnosed with depression is not a more accepted thing among those on the left than on the right - but the former has an even greater divide, where there is still an element of it being a taboo subject on the right but is talked about quite openly on the left. This is especially true for men, where traditional conservative values have long been for men to "stop complaining and just get on with it" and that it's not manly to show emotions whereas on the left it is now accepted as a normal thing for men to suffer with mental health issues and healthy for them to show their emotions.

While what you say about women generally having higher reported rates of mental ill health, the ideological divide is actually much greater among men; by most measures the gap between liberal men and conservative men is much greater than that between liberal women and conservative women. I think this fact is actually a strong piece of evidence in favour of my argument that selection bias is a big factor in the overall ideological difference in reporting of mental ill health - the demographic for which the difference in social stigma is most pronounced is the demographic for which there is the largest difference in reporting.

something that boldly flies in the face of this theory of yours is that mental illness has been stigmatized in this thread to where it's been treated like a pejorative and banned from discussion because it's considered so bad by the extremely left leaning people who forbid usage of that term

so i would say you need to show your work on that notion, as the only evidence we have here deeply implies the opposite

Talking about depression in particular, something that is diagnosed fairly often to men who fail to achieve in life, the typical men "recruited" by the right because they feel the system is built against them (those who think MAGA means "my own life can be good again"), i don't understand what you mean as talks about depression are extremely common among them.

Divorced fathers being "scammed" by the system which gives the woman custody and money and so on, typical loser in life at that point in time who can become radicalized to the right depending on circumstances, they are all very open about depression. In some way the "army" of rightwing minions , the beta ones, online is filled up by people like that.

These are often the same kind of people who some time ago would become AA crusaders, to give the idea.

Acceptance of personal weakness isn't seen as weakness anymore on the right, hasn't since dunno like the late 80s! it is required of you to act upon it with force of will though, on the right, that for sure.

And i do talk with experience about rightwing circles. In the present.

The "stigma" in this thread is about saying a trans person is mentally ill as a way of dismissing the reality of their identity. It has nothing to do with any sort of stigma about having actual mental illness, which is what I was talking about.

Not being ok with something being considered a mental health issue (e.g. being transgender) is not remotely the same thing as not being accepting of things that are agreed to be mental health issues (e.g. having clinical depression).

that is not even remotely close to what's taken place

sadly, this is the cost of a lack of transparency with rampant post deletions by mods that i'm sure you actually believe the above to be the case

some people have used it as a weapon and that indeed should not be allowed

but you should go ahead and try to discuss anything about mental health and see how quickly your posts get deleted and you get banned

Wiild summarized it perfectly

This might be accurate but for the most part you're talking about a very small portion of conservative men here - basically very online millenials and younger. There is still a lot of stigma evident just in the way you're describing this though.

This is actually just a good example of how it's still stigmatised, even though you think it's a counter example. If the expected response to acknowledging a mental health issue is to "act upon it with force of will" then that just means that failure to handle it is still seen as a weakness, so anyone struggling is far more likely to try to hide the problem than actually get help and deal with it properly.

This back and forth happened less than a week ago. ganstaman himself was talking openly about mental health and even agreeing that trans people tend to struggle more with mental illness. The thing that is problematic is saying that being trans is itself a mental health issue.

Yes lack of force of will is still seen as a moral failure on the right. Having demons in your head and seeking help to fight them isn't though. That's very different from 30-40+ years ago.

he's allowed to talk about it, that's about it

beyond acknowledging that people who are trans also have a non-zero chance of having mental health issues, there's basically no room for discussion on this issue

which is just patently dishonest

to emphasize the point, overeating is classified as a mental health disorder and it would perfectly acceptable to talk about that relationship with obesity but not here