LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
They are the numbers. Your opinion of what they mean is the stupid thing.
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Failing Expectations
* NO ONE EXPECTED lebron to give up after Year 7 and team-up with opponents thereafter
* NO ONE EXPECTED lebron to lose to Dwight in 2009 (-700 favorite)
* NO ONE EXPECTED lebron to meltdown in 2010 (-500 favorite)
* NO ONE EXPECTED lebron to have the goat choke in 2011
* NO ONE EXPECTED lebron to have the worst championship record ever
* NO ONE EXPECTED only 4 chips in 24 years (he'll probably play that long)
* NO ONE EXPECTED lebron to never produce a great team
* NO ONE EXPECTED 2 for 4 with Wade/Bosh including goat choke and record loss
* NO ONE EXPECTED lebron to mostly lose with favored rosters, aka preseason favorites, Finals teams, top seeds, all-star teammates, or multiple all-star teammates,
* NO ONE EXPECTED lebron to be lottery in the West in 2019
* NO ONE EXPECTED lebron to miss the play-in with AD and Westbrook
* NO ONE EXPECTED lebron to be Jokic's b*tch and have a lottery record against the Nuggets, Spurs and Warriors
* NO ONE EXPECTED lebron to not be the best at a any major stat (PPG, RPG, APG, PER, plus-minus, etc)
* NO ONE EXPECTED lebron to play worse than anyone ever has (35% and 6 TO's) against the 07' Pistons and 08' Celtics
A career of failed expectations - what expectation did he meet?
I don't understand the point you're trying to make by listing the league's assisted rate - please explain..
We're talking about 1st options, and nearly half of the league's 1st options are low-assisted (ball-dominators) - these guys have never produced the best basketball - only highly-assisted 1st options did.... Despite the massive influx of low-assisted 1st options since 2000, all the dynasties and dominant champions had highly-assisted 1st options.
So again, what's the relevance of the league's assisted rate?... Show me where Luka, Lebron, Harden, SGA or any low-assisted 1st option produced a dynasty or dominant champion - so you lost and are trying to deflect by bringing up irrelevant stuff to pretend you're responding.
^^^ That's literally what you guys are doing by buying into a fraud and letting the fables you hear on TV wash over you every night
Meanwhile, I face the truth and facts head-on, just like I do with everything in life..
So you couldn't be misperceiving the situation more wrongly, including exaggerations about how long it takes me to do this stuff - it takes you guys MUCH longer to watch the games and and fall for the fraud then me typing ready-made arguments at 120 words a minute (which point out the fraud)..
You guys actually watch the games and fall for the WWE that the NBA has become, so it's quite amusing that you think I'M the one that is avoiding the truth... Lmao - it's literally the opposite - you guys are avoiding the truth about the NBA, and therefore probably miss a lot of stuff in your own lives - you guys should let me advise you on your life too since you're so lost and fooled by a simple sport like basketball.
^^^ That's literally what you guys are doing by buying into a fraud and letting the fables you hear on TV wash over you every night
Meanwhile, I face the truth and facts head-on, just like I do with everything in life..
So you couldn't be misperceiving the situation more wrongly, including exaggerations about how long it takes me to do this stuff - it takes you guys MUCH longer to watch the games and and fall for the fraud then me typing ready-made facts at 120 words a minute (which point out the fraud)..
You guys actually watch the games and fall for the WWE that the NBA has become, so it's quite amusing that you think I'M the one that is avoiding the truth... Lmao... You guys are avoiding the truth about the NBA, and therefore probably miss a lot of stuff in your own lives - y'all should let me advise you on your life too since you're so lost and fooled by a simple sport like basketball.. I don't charge much, and how much is it worth to perceive things correctly??.. It would be worth it for you guys because you seem quite clueless and lack intelligence (no offense to all you guys, but how could I not think that after our discussions on here and how much I have to explain basic stuff - it's like teaching beginners).
LeBron James has had an assisted fg% as high as 48.9% for a full season.
Did you realize LeBron James isn’t capable of catching 1.1 additional passes out of 100 field goals, on average, and then scoring? And that is the reason he could not be coached by Phil Jackson or Gregg Popovich or Steve Kerr? It’s not because LeBron never played on a team that was coached by Jackson, Popovich, or Kerr. It was because he missed the assisted fg% threshold by 1.1%. This was all derived from first principles of course.
A reminder that Luka Doncic is from Slovenia, developed and played as an international player, and is regarded as one of the greatest international players of all time.
You may also wall of text this one if you wish: explain in as much detail and precision as possible how a player (Luka Doncic) who grew up, developed, and played in the international game, and is one of the most successful and greatest international players ever, is not capable of playing in the style of the international game and
Do guys think that Luka Doncic, who is universally regarded as one of the greatest international players of all time, is capable of playing the international style of basketball?
I wonder if his current offensive role, and therefore his assisted fg rate, is determined by his role in the Mavericks offense?
^^^ That's literally what you guys are doing by buying into a fraud and letting the fables you hear on TV wash over you every night
Meanwhile, I face the truth and facts head-on, just like I do with everything in life..
So you couldn't be misperceiving the situation more wrongly, including exaggerations about how long it takes me to do this stuff - it takes you guys MUCH longer to watch the games and and fall for the fraud then me typing ready-made facts at 120 words a minute (which point out the
Delusion isn't just a river in Egypt.
You stated that you watch all the games, so you spend entire days escaping reality - only the biggest losers in the world watch NBA games and this is common knowledge.
Delusion is you guys thinking a perennial loser, colluder and choker is goat and buying into a fake debate.
That's pretty delusional.... And if the TV told you that Lebron wasn't the goat, you would go with that - you have no takes of your own and get all your basketball knowledge from TV, so you didn't know what assisted rate was before I educated you guys on it's history
You're making my point when you cite a year when Lebron is past his prime and isn't a competitive player anymore or seeking titles.
Lebron spent his career in the 30's and peaked at 40% during his time as a competitive player (thru 2021).
This 20-40% caliber has never been the 1st option on a dominant champion or dynasty, while the 40-60% range was 1st option 12 of 12 times.... 20-40% players are the ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron, etc, while the 40-60% guys are all the best jumpshooters and bigs like Curry, MJ, Duncan, Shaq, etc... It's a pretty clear distinction.
Hope that helps.
You rate Kobe Bryant as the second greatest player of all time.
*** You say a player needs to have the “capability” to meet or exceed 50% assisted fg% to lead a dynasty or “dominant champion”.
LeBron James never met or exceeded a 50% assisted fg% therefore he’s bad and you rank him outside the top 10.
Kobe Bryant never met or exceeded a 50% assisted fg%. But he is the second greatest player of all time anyway.
Make it make sense. Go fallguy go.
(Just to be clear, it’s the statement marked *** that is completely nonsensical.)
You rate Kobe Bryant as the second greatest player of all time.
*** You say a player needs to have the “capability” to meet or exceed 50% assisted fg% to lead a dynasty or “dominant champion”.
LeBron James never met or exceeded a 50% assisted fg% therefore he’s bad and you rank him outside the top 10.
Kobe Bryant never met or exceeded a 50% assisted fg%. But he is the second greatest player of all time anyway.
Make it make sense. Go fallguy go.
(Just to be clear, it’s the statement marked *** that is
Do guys think that Luka Doncic, who is universally regarded as one of the greatest international players of all time,
is capable of playing the international style of basketball?
Luka dominates the ball massively in international play but he peaked at 16 ppg - so that's where your argument fails.
Low-scoring ball-dominators like Nash, Magic and Haliburton can have high-assist teams because their lower scoring levels don't have the large volume of unassisted buckets that lowers everyone's assists and stops ball movement - it's only the high-scoring ball-dominators that have the large volume of unassisted buckets that lowers everyone's assists and stops ball movement (NBA-style).
There's been a massive influx of these high-scoring ball-dominators into the NBA since 2000, and their large volume of unassisted buckets lowered team assists league-wide for a 20-year period (2000-2020).. In addition to lowering team assists league-wide, these unassisted players were never the 1st option on any of the 12 dominant champions or dynasties since 1997... Again, their large volume of unassisted buckets lowers teammates' assists, thereby stopping ball movement and preventing high average ranking in team assists.
I wonder if his current offensive role, and therefore his assisted fg rate,
is determined by his role in the Mavericks offense?
Prime Shaq forced every team to play in-out, while Lebron, Luka, Harden and every ball-dominator in history forced coaches to run a ball-dominant offense with low team assists.
Since 1997, players that averaged 25 ppg with below 40% assisted rate produced a top 5 assist team 5 of 96 times (5%), compared to 36 of 87 times (41%) for 25 ppg scorers with 50% assisted rate or more.. So coaches cannot run a consistent ball movement offense with ball-dominators - this is intuitive btw.
So it's the style and skillset (assisted or not) of the biggest bucket-getter (1st option) that dictates a team's style of play (team assists)... Carry on in ignorance though, sigh.. It's a free country.
Luka dominates the ball massively in international play but he peaked at 16 ppg - so that's where your argument fails.
This statement makes absolutely no sense.
Are you saying that Luka is not regarded as one of the best international players to ever play the international game?
Or are you saying it’s ok that he dominated the ball when playing internationally? It’s just not ok when he plays for Dallas?
Or are you saying one can still be one of the GOAT international players and dominate the ball as long as he only averages 16 ppg?
Low-scoring ball-dominators like Nash, Magic and Haliburton can have high-assist teams because their lower scoring levels don't have the large volume of unassisted buckets that lowers everyone's assists and stops ball movement - it's only the high-scoring ball-dominators that have the large volume of unassisted buckets that lowers everyone's assists and stops ball movement (NBA-style).
Ok, I think I see what you’re saying. It’s bad that LeBron James scored a lot of points. And you think it would be better if LeBron James scored fewer points. And it wasn’t the coaches’ decisions to put LeBron James in a role that scored a lot of points. It’s that LeBron James was not capable of not scoring a lot of points. It’s actually harder to score 16 ppg than it is to score 30 ppg, and since LeBron James scored a lot of points efficiently and not few points, this makes him bad and is why he cannot be coached by Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, or Steve Kerr and is why he won 3 championships in 5 years (2012 to 2016) which doesn’t count because he scored a lot of points.
Lmfao you’re the best fallguy. I mean that.
You rate Kobe Bryant as the second greatest player of all time.
*** You say a player needs to have the “capability” to meet or exceed 50% assisted fg% to lead a dynasty or “dominant champion”.
LeBron James never met or exceeded a 50% assisted fg% therefore he’s bad and you rank him outside the top 10.
Kobe Bryant never met or exceeded a 50% assisted fg%. But he is the second greatest player of all time anyway.
Make it make sense. Go fallguy go.
(Just to be clear, it̵
Part of the criteria for GOAT is being the 1st option for dynasties and dominant champions, but this isn't required for top 10 because a dominant champions is just 1 season, and there haven't been 10 dynasties to fill out the top 10.
So Kobe can still be in the top 10 despite not being the 1st option on a dynasty or dominant champion.
However, I'm open to moving Kobe down the top 10 rankings... The only criteria for my top 10 is that the best players from the "chemistry-friendly" or highly-assisted skillsets (jumpshooters and bigs) are ahead of the best players from low-assisted skillsets (ball-dominators), who produce weak chemistry and constantly need more help.. The first ball-dominator is ranked at #11, 12, and 13 (Magic, Lebron, Oscar), so Kobe can rank as low as 10th.
Btw, I've been going back and forth to establish rock-solid criteria... But there's a tiny grey area because these low-assisted guys peak at 40% and the highly-assisted guys bottom-out at 40%.... Accordingly, it's proper to say that the 20-40% players were never 1st option on a dynasty or dominant champion, while the 40-60% guys were.. I think that's rock-solid and congruent with the historical record... Obviously, the 20-40% guys are ball-dominators, and the 40-60% guys are the higher-assisted jumpshooters or bigs that serve as 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties and dominant champs).
Btw, I've been going back and forth to establish rock-solid criteria... But there's a tiny grey area because these low-assisted guys peak at 40% and the highly-assisted guys bottom-out at 40%....
Are you sure you haven’t just arbitrarily decided that LeBron James is bad because you’re biased against him to the point you’ve gone clinically insane, reasoned backwards, and tried to establish completely nonsensical criteria to say a player can’t lead a dominant champion because LeBron James does not happen to fit in this narrow 0.5% sliver of a window of assisted field goal percentage?
Because I and everyone else that is watching this debacle think you are doing that.
Ok, I think I see what you’re saying. It’s bad that LeBron James scored a lot of points unassisted.
^^^^ fixed
History shows that large volumes of unassisted buckets doesn't produce the best basketball as 1st option (dynasty or dominant champion), and also produces low average ranking in team assists.
You should be aware that if Lebron scored 100 points unassisted, everyone would be a spot-up shooter and quite useless, so the team would lose and need more help... Otoh, if Lebron's 100 were assisted, then the ball is moving and the defense is getting worn down, which leaves them less capacity for offense - ball movement wins the attrition battle, which is the key to any relatively evenly-matched contest (such as a contest between 2 NBA teams)..
That's the reason that ball-dominant teams are weaker teams - they let the defense rest, so they have more capacity for offense... The story for Lebron's career is teams magically "getting hot" against his plodding ball dominance - they simply don't have to work as hard defensively, so they have more capacity to "get hot" on offense.. We saw that with Dwight's Magic, or Dirk's Mavs, Curry's Warriors or Duncan's Spurs - everyone "gets hot" against bron-ball.. Meanwhile, guys like Kobe, MJ and Curry score assisted buckets that let the ball move and let teammates be more than spot-up shooters - the zippy ball movement wears down defenses and has better teammate fits, chemistry and teams.
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Lebron James does not happen to fit in this narrow 0.5% sliver of a window of assisted field goal percentage?
All the 1st options for dynasties or dominant champions were guys that had a low of 40%, not a high... The guys with a high of 40% were never 1st option for the best basketball..
And we're actually talking about 1 guy - Tatum had 40% assisted rate in 2024 but is usually closer to 50 or above, otherwise Duncan is the lowest-assisted player with 46% during the 07' run season - and he's otherwise at 50-60% normally...
Again, 40% is the LOW.... If it's the high, then it's an entirely different type of player (ball-dominator) that has never been the 1st option on a dynasty or dominant champ... Lebron is a 30-40% player, and no player with this level of assisted rates has ever been the 1st option for the best basketball (dynasty or dominant champ), which requires 40-60% guys.
Dorian-Finney-Smith is having a career year, so why not send him to the Lakers!!!
It's the league-fixing at work... The Lakers have won a couple games in a row so let's see if we can really springboard them into title contention with a key move.
Finney-Smith is the perfect role player to replace a logjam of high-scoring players that the Lakers have - the league did overkill by sending the Lakers too many good scorers, so now they need to replace one of them with a role player.
The fix is in... And this probably isn't the last move... Remember that the Lakers have gotten 5 straight roster overhauls since 2019, which no other team has enjoyed.. The league has literally sent the Lakers every good player and good role player that exists to get Lebron #5... it's pretty remarkable how pathetic he is (how much help he needs and still can't win but once every blue moon).
I don't even read fallguy's posts.
I'm too busy watching NBA and ESPN and agreeing with everything they say.
History shows that large volumes of unassisted buckets doesn't produce the best basketball as 1st option (dynasty or dominant champion), and also produces low average ranking in team assists.
You should be aware that if Lebron scored 100 points unassisted, everyone would be a spot-up shooter and quite useless, so the team would lose and need more help... Otoh, if Lebron's 100 were assisted, then the ball is moving and the defense is getting worn down, which leaves them less capacity for offense -
And as has been said LeBron James has had assisted rates as high as 48.9%. 40.8% in a year he titled and beat the team with the greatest regular season record of all time. Which proves he is “capable” of being highly assisted, because you know, he factually did it based on factual historical evidence.
I was actually trying to find the name of the formal logical fallacy fallguy has committed 4 billion times, and besides moving the goalposts (an informal fallacy), it is literally called the argument by pigheadedness lmao.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincib...
The method used in this fallacy is either to make assertions with no consideration of objections or to simply dismiss objections by calling them excuses, conjecture, anecdotal, etc. or saying that they are proof of nothing, all without actually demonstrating how the objections fit these terms.
That wiki entry needs a full subunit dedicated to fallguy and the anti-LeBron crusade.
