LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
People keep saying this but the facts simply do not support this narrative at all.
The average age in the NBA is lower now than in the 1990s and 2000s.
The game is played at a faster pace now with faster possessions and more spaced out offenses which requires more stamina and quickness.
LeBron is the only player in his age group still playing significant minutes in the NBA, much less playing at a high level. He's a unicorn.
Because today and later they can play 50-60 games per year and it’s fine for the owners because spectators do not care when their best players miss like 20% of the time .
They still pay the tickets .
And the physicality is totally gone .
https://fadeawayworld.net/numbers-of-pla...
“Jordan played in all 82 games nine times and didn’t miss a game from March 1995 to June 1998. Even at 40 years old, Jordan played all 82 games and played nearly 37 minutes a night. The all-time leader in assists, John Stockton, played in 82 games 16 times in his career. These superstars headlined the 80s and 90s. It might feel like that time was not far back, but we are pushing 30 years from that time. The game is changing whether you like it or not.”
In 2019
https://hoopshype.com/2019/04/19/kawhi-l...
“From 1967 until 2004, a total of 12.8 percent of the league played all 82 games. During that 37-year stretch, that figured dropped below nine percent just once.”
“This season, meanwhile, a total of just 21 players appeared in the full slate of games for their team. For the seventh season in a row, that figure has dropped below six percent of the league. Since 2010-11, only 5.1 percent of the NBA has played the entire season.”
“The last time more than four All-Stars played a full season was in 2002-03. This included Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Yao Ming and Steve Nash in the Western Conference and Allen Iverson, Michael Jordan and Jamal Mashburn in the East.”
Keep in mind ,
Those number in 2019 was much better than today in 2022-23.
From the first link:
The years that follow after 2019 (ex covid year) was only 11 players , 5 players and 6 players that played all games !
It’s real joke to say today players have it harder while having better hotel, travel, food, medecine , etc.
Then why is it harder to stay in the league nowadays?
The mean and median age in the NBA is significantly lower now than in the 90's.
Those are facts.
Then why is it harder to stay in the league nowadays?
The mean and median age in the NBA is significantly lower now than in the 90's.
Those are facts.
It’s harder for the average players yes .
They have much less talents .
It doesn’t translate to superstars .
People keep saying this but the facts simply do not support this narrative at all.
The average age in the NBA is lower now than in the 1990s and 2000s.
The game is played at a faster pace now with faster possessions and more spaced out offenses which requires more stamina and quickness.
LeBron is the only player in his age group still playing significant minutes in the NBA, much less playing at a high level. He's a unicorn.
Yes the facts support it 100%.
The age is lower because the talent in the league is deeper and deeper.
Players have major advantages over previous players to play longer. What you think the sport science gets worse?
Lebron probably has a air cryo chamber in his house. 50 years ago that was unaffordable. Knowledge on diet
is much greater also.
Players were able to play longer back in the day because the leagues weren't so competitive. Like Gordie howe
He would not be in the NHL in his 40's today.
Jaromir Jagr is a good example today. Good sports science and taking care of himself, he was good at 41-42.
Lebron is a freak. But at his best vs Jordan at his best sorry there's no way.
In 1-1 lebron would crush MJ.
If you're picking from a pool of 30 all-time players (at their peak) to create a best of 7 NBA finals between two teams, and you win the toss and get first pick for your team, you pick Jordan. Lol the answer being anything else.
Now that doesn't mean he had the better total career. But I'm taking the guy there that I think most NBA stars pick too.
Jordan is too big for Lebron too bully-ball for 11 straight post-ups - Lebron will surely stumble and fumble after a few bully-balls... otoh, Jordan can easily score 11 times in a row on Lebron via fadeaway, let alone moves and BAG, of which Lebron has none.
Btw, Jordan has the quickest first step in history and would blow-by Lebron like he isn't even there - it would be a mismatch the same way as Karl Malone or Rodman guarding Jordan, which is why they were never assigned to be primary defender on Jordan.
Also, anyone that knows basketball knows that Jordan will rip Lebron with the game on the line.. btw, "rip" means steal the ball - think Karl Malone Game 6 1998 - something like that is guaranteed to happen if it's a close game and MJ hasn't already run off 11 in a row on him.. People simply underestimate the goat scorer - if he gets the ball first, it's likely over (11 straight)
the talent isn't deeper - it's just more commoditized - every team needs a bunch of guys that are 6'2" to 7'0" that can just stand there and shoot threes - no other skills required - just stand there and be ready for a catch-and-shoot, and then focus on moving your feet on screen rolls defensively.. That's it - no other basketball skills required...
This "3-and-D" skillset is commonplace - any tom, dick, or harry with NBA size qualifies.. Essentially, today's spacing strategy requires less skills for a large swathe of players, whereas the lack of spacing in previous eras required contested shot-making by everyone.. Nearly everyone could make awkward-looking shots or plays in traffic under heavy contests - the lack of spacing forced everyone to develop this quicker instinct and individually-unique ways of making contested shots - even role players had to quick-iso their man in traffic for quick shots and plays.. There was no large group of players that didn't take contested shots and could just stand out there for open shots like today's game - no simpleton 3-and-D skillsets - only today's spacing allows this simpler skillset.. It gets exposed in international play however as the lesser spacing format (closer 3-point line and smaller paint area) and higher physicality requires quick basketball instinct, touch and skill that previous eras had more of.
So again, today's game is largely simpleton 3-and-D skillsets for most players because the spacing allows open shots regularly - only the top players are required to have other skills in today's game, while everyone else is mainly 3-and-D robots - again, this is due to the spacing strategy..
It's interesting because people talk about how athletic today's players are, but every time I turn the game on, I see a bunch of unathletic 6'10" guys shooting threes and getting beat routinely off-the-dribble (a million Vucevic's), or I see an unathletic 6'5" guy standing out there shooting threes and nothing else (a million Caleb Martin's) - HALF THE LEAGUE are these types of players - the lesser athleticism of this massive group of players coupled with the spacing and hands-off defense (no impede rules too) is why many people say that MJ would average 50 in today's game.. I think he would have a season of 46 or 47 ppg.... 87' MJ could accomplish this (the greatest basketball athlete ever).
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YOU GUYS SUCK SO BAD
LIKE LOGIC JUST ESCAPES YOU
talent isn't deeper?
50 years ago it was just Americans playing basketball. Now its a world league
with way more people playing around the world, therefore more talent.
Giannis, Joel Embiid, The joker don't exist 50 years ago. Now a world team
most likely beats team USA.
Google says 450 million people play basketball today. WAY WAY WAY HIGHER THAN 50 years ago
MORE PEOPLE PLAYING = MORE TALENT
YOU SUCK
no wonder these debates never get solved. Pure common sense out the window
If you're picking from a pool of 30 all-time players (at their peak) to create a best of 7 NBA finals between two teams, and you win the toss and get first pick for your team, you pick Jordan. Lol the answer being anything else.
Now that doesn't mean he had the better total career. But I'm taking the guy there that I think most NBA stars pick too.
Snap pick Curry thx (not that I remotely think he's the GOAT, but that's not what this hypothetical is asking)
I pick Curry too. Not that he's the best but his skillset is uniquely useful and hardest to replace.
Then if the other team picks Jordan you pick LeBron, and vice versa.
Now if this was a 30 team league that changes things a lot because you won't get another pick for a long time so you have to take the best player. With only 2 teams you take Curry because you still end up with one of Jordan/LeBron and there's like 4 legit choices at center anyway.
LaBron has a higher 1-year BPM and WS/48, and if you include playoffs a higher 1-year PER and VORP.
Jordan has the highest 1-year, 3-year, and 5-year PER, BPM, WS/48, and VORP, except the 2 that you mentioned (1-year BPM and WS/48).
So he's winning the peak argument relatively-handily based on these metrics. while also winning the career argument by being #1 all-time in all these metrics (except VORP because it's minutes-based/longevity-based, but MJ has 5 of the top 7 VORP seasons).. And 1-year playoff numbers mean nothing because everyone plays different opponents and the runs are very short.. Finals runs carry some weight but anything else is too short and opponents-based.
The overriding point is that the aforementioned production rates (stats) are the metrics where Lebron is closest to Jordan, yet he still falls distinctly short across the board from a peak or career perspective - so Jordan wins the production rate argument relatively handily, while every other metric shows Lebron nowhere near Jordan whether it's winning, accolades, individual or team accomplishment.
Keep in mind that Lebron needed an all-star center to win 40 games in 2005, while MJ needed nothing to win 40 games in 1987.. Furthermore, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a HOF coach and 22/5/5 all-defender to win 50 games in 06', while MJ won 50 with nothing in 88'.. Of course MJ had more 60 and 70-win seasons despite less help, aka Lebron had 5 seasons with 2 all-star teammates (zero for Jordan) and a 34 to 9 advantage in top 5 draft pick teammates.. Lebron hand-picked the preseason favorite from 2011-2016 but only won 3 titles, and 2 were razor-thin requiring teammate save.. Lebron never actually had a low seed in the playoffs because he had 3 years to develop a favored high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs - the first time Lebron had a low seed was 2021 (1st Round loss).
In addition to more rings and MVP's, MJ has twice the ring frequency as Lebron (40% to 20%), or MVP frequency (33% to 19%), while also winning MVP's over a 10-year period (25 to 35 years old), compared to a 5 year period for Lebron (23-28).. So MJ has the longest stretch of MVP-caliber play ever.. Btw, guys like Blake Griffin or Pippen get 2nd and 3rd for MVP but they aren't "MVP-caliber" players, so only winning the MVP constitutes "MVP-caliber".
MJ also has 9 two-way seasons of scoring champ + 1st team defense from 88-98' (goat peak), or 2 three-peats (goat peak), perfect Finals record (goat peak), or an MVP/DPOY season - he won 6 titles as scoring champ or usage champ (both unprecedented) - these are all demonstrably-superior peaks than Lebron.. Of course MJ always defeated max defensive attention (carried scoring load on champion ship level), so he didn't need as much scoring help, whereas Lebron's lack of expert jumpshooting skill and resulting ball-domination is insufficient brand that cannot win while dominating the shot distribution like MJ can - so he needs elite-scoring sidekicks that can match or lead him in scoring/usage for entire playoff runs.. carry on
I pick Curry too. Not that he's the best but his skillset is uniquely useful and hardest to replace.
Then if the other team picks Jordan you pick LeBron, and vice versa.
MJ is probably closer to a replacement-level player in this hypothetical than a number 2 pick - limited offensive upside with no 3-point range and limited defensive value in a format where he's one of the smallest players overall. This isn't just limited to MJ - very few players outside of the current era (as in the last 10 years) would add significant value in this format. Shaq might be the only one with significant enough value.
Curry could be a good #1 pick though Kawhi/KD/Lebron would be easier to build around and safer.
Snap pick Curry thx (not that I remotely think he's the GOAT, but that's not what this hypothetical is asking)
Something like this makes sense to me (order with tier is arbitrary):
S: Curry, Kawhi, KD, Lebron
A (Def): Giannis, KG, Duncan, Hakeem, DRob
A (Off): Chris Paul, Harden, Nash
A (Shaq): Shaq
B: Jokic, Magic, Embiid, Luka, Dirk
C: MJ, Bird, Kobe, Pippen
Assuming some time to become with the modern game, otherwise older players would fall even further behind. I'm sure I'm missing some players.
I pick Curry too. Not that he's the best but his skillset is uniquely useful and hardest to replace.
Then if the other team picks Jordan you pick LeBron, and vice versa.
Now if this was a 30 team league that changes things a lot because you won't get another pick for a long time so you have to take the best player. With only 2 teams you take Curry because you still end up with one of Jordan/LeBron and there's like 4 legit choices at center anyway.
I was actually assuming it would be snake haha, and that I'm opening myself up to them getting Lebron and MJ. But glwt those two working together and I just take KD and Kawhi as candybar said and then all then there are like a million options for a C and a 5th option 3+D
Agreed though this is a specifically head to head thing where the teams are staaaaaaaaacked
Oh yeah if it snakes and the second team takes MJ and LeBron then I'd take KD and Shaq.
As a side note: I've read a lot of this thread over the years (too much) and it's obviously pretty consensus that MJ and Lebron are #1 and #2 in some order, even amongst those with a real strong opinion on who is #1 and who is #2. But you do get a fair few of the MJ crazies that just dismiss Lebron completely. "Massve loser"/"barely top 10"/"worse than Kobe"/etc/etc.
I don't I've ever seen anyone other than candybar do it the other way, and I still can't work out if it's just a revenge troll on some of these ridiculous Lebron opinions or if he genuinely just flat does't rate MJ lol. Either way I'm all for it 😃
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3-POINT EFFICIENCY FOR REGULAR SEASON GAMES WHERE MJ HAD 3+ ATTEMPTS:
1985..... 4-18
1986...... 3-6
1987...... 5-22
1988...... 1-3
1989...... 16-49
1990...... 75-187
1991...... 11-30
1992...... 13-39
1993...... 68-185
__________________________
total....... 196-539 (36.4%)
3-POINT EFFICIENCY FOR PLAYOFF SERIES WITH 3+ ATTEMPTS (HIGHLIGHTED BELOW):
53-135 (39.2%)
MJ is probably closer to a replacement-level player in this hypothetical than a number 2 pick - limited offensive upside with no 3-point range
From 85-93', Jordan shot 36.4% on threes in games that he had 3+ attempts (539 attempts), and 39% in series with 3+ attempts (regular line only) - aka there's no record of MJ shooting poorly at today's volumes.
Since MJ always shot well at today's volumes despite no practice, he would be elite in today's game WITH practice... 36-39% with no practice translates to over 40% WITH practice in today's game.
'
This is a clear demonstration that MJ would shoot well in today's game
As a side note: I've read a lot of this thread over the years (too much) and it's obviously pretty consensus that MJ and Lebron are #1 and #2 in some order, even amongst those with a real strong opinion on who is #1 and who is #2. But you do get a fair few of the MJ crazies that just dismiss Lebron completely. "Massve loser"/"barely top 10"/"worse than Kobe"/etc/etc.
I don't I've ever seen anyone other than candybar do it the other way, and I still can't work out if it's just a revenge troll o
When Lebron entered the league, no one thought he would give up after Year 7 and team up with opponents and franchise players thereafter - so he failed expectation.. There's many other ways he failed expectation such as losing as a historic favorite in 2009 or 2010 (meltdown #1), and then the goat choke in 2011 (meltdown #2), and then falling from preseason favorite to underdog or loser for 6 straight years (2011-2016) except the Allen miracle.. All of these are objective examples of failing expectation.
And the issue for many fans is that he never finished climbing that learning curve of how to win - this is similar to Giannis in 2020, or Jokic a couple years ago with playoff disappointments as the MVP..
The difference is that Giannis and Jokic figured out the chemistry, teammate fits and strategy required to win titles, while Lebron gave up and teamed up with multiple franchise players - this is talent-based winning, so he never really learned how to win (chemistry).. His inability to develop great chemistry is why he always needs more help.
And this is why Kobe was superior - as an expert jumpshooter and great ball-handler, he was elite on-ball and off-ball, which fit with everyone - everyone was elevated and shined alongside him, while his scoring diversity allowed maximum strategic capacity/coaching as well.. Ultimately, Kobe could carry the scoring load and dominate the shot distribution (need less help) while playing a great brand of ball (winning).. otoh, Lebron is a high-scoring ball-dominator and therefore not capable of a high-assist team or great brand of ball and maximum strategic capacity/coaching - aka he lacks sufficient brand of ball to dominate the shot distribution and win, so he needs sidekicks that can match or lead him in usage or ppg for entire playoff runs (Wade, Kyrie, AD)... this weaker brand of ball and need for more help explains the massive gap in team ceiling/Finals record between the 2 players.. Basically, Kobe was an expert jumpshooter that could play off teammates, while Lebron is a spotty-shooting ball-dominator that clashes with other spotty-shooting ball-dominators like Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, Wade, or Pippen, while also clashing with bigs like Bosh, Love or Pau.
Kobe was my favorite player and he's a Godlike figure here in Los Angeles.
You instantly lose all credibility as an objective basketball analyst if you rank Kobe higher than LeBron.
Kobe was better than LeBron at like two things, long twos, and free throws.
