LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

It's clear that the 92' Croatian team had a superior team top to bottom - better 2nd, 3rd and 4th best players, even if they didn't have a better 1st option than Jokic, Giannis, or SGA

The top teams from 92' would destroy South Sudan, yet the US almost lost to them

It's hilarious that you guys let a few dozen journalism majors that never went within 10 feet of a spherical object tell you who is good at basketball and who deserved MVP

It's funny that people keep bringing up Rachel Nichols or Ric Bucher's opinion as their argument.. Let that sink in.. That's what you're doing every time you bring up media accolade.. Otoh, media accolade is always a tertiary argument for me - I use the player's actual PERFORMANCE as the primary and secondary arguments.

Everyone with a brain knows that Curry deserved the MVP in the 2015 Finals.. He defeated max defensive attention (carried scoring load on championship level), which Lebron never did and most all-time greats never did - this matters because being able to carry the scoring load against top teams allows you to win with less, such as a secondary producer like Klay or Wiggins instead of franchise players like AD or Wade... It's a big gap in the help each guy needed to win.

Btw, everyone locked up Lebron in the 2015 Playoffs and made him shoot like crap, so Iggy shouldn't get credit for doing what everyone else did - Lebron shot 48.7% true shooting for that playoff run compared to 52% league average, so everyone made Lebron shoot like garbage in those playoffs because the higher scoring load requirements on that run required more jumpers for Lebron, which we all know kills his efficiency.

Ultimately, Curry introduced a superior way of playing the game and carried his team's scoring load - it's one of the biggest travesties in NBA history from an awards standpoint - actually, it's the biggest travesty ever.

If what you're saying was true, then it works both ways - we would see the occasional close game but then we would see a bunch of massive blowouts that were bigger than any of the original Dream Team's blowouts because the original Dream Team never "got hot" from three.. So the US margin of victory should still be greater than the original Dream Team... But obviously, it isn't.

So counselor, your argument fails.. Like you said, it's math and numbers.

Furthermore, the US lost 6 times in the last 5 years to international teams, and I'm sure those boxscores show the US losing despite better 3-point shooting in some of the games, and of course the US lost many times in 02', 04', and 06' when 3-pointers weren't a big part of the game.

So your argument fails on many levels counselor

Also, you're misunderstanding what Pop is saying and the game of basketball itself.... "Getting hot" isn't random... A junior high school team cannot get hot on an NBA team.. There are other factors, namely the attrition battle... Against junior-highers, NBA players never get tired and are fresh as a daisy with 100% confidence at all times - they will shoot great against junior highers basically every time... But against fellow NBA players, guys don't shoot as well because NBA comp requires more energy, while there will also be less optimism and less sheer confidence then facing junior highers - this affects efficiency.. And it gets more nuanced as the comp increases... Things like brand of ball come into play as some brands wear out defenses more than others - teams "get hot" on ball-domination all the time, since it lets defenses rest, while zippy ball movement wears out defenses and leaves them less capacity for offense.. The story of Lebron's career is how opponents "got hot" against his plodding ball-domination and lack of ball movement.. carry on

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Another one and it's a big one

Are we done here? Previous eras have seen the player weights DEFLATED significantly by 10-20 pounds on average..

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Another one

these aren't small gaps - they're BIG discrepancies

You do realize that bball ref probably just has their initial listed weight?

And you’re wasting a huge amount of time proving absolutely nothing.

But that’s nothing new to your posting itt. So please, carry on.

You do realize it's far easier to score 12 ppg playing along LeBron, who is a playmaker (who especially sets up guys like the list you made with open 3's), than it is to score 12 ppg playing with chucker Jordan?

Playoff Jordan was taking 25 fga attempts per game and averaging 4 assists per game while Kukoc was a Bull. Playing alongside a player like Jordan is tough for a 3rd/4th option type guys.

Ron Harper scored 20.1 ppg the year before he joined the Bulls. He had a career 19.3 ppg at the time. And he was the 7th offensive option on those Bulls.

Michael “Black Hole” Jordan

That’s why Elon is my one true GOAT.

But can he jump over a chair like Bill Gates?

The biggest source for player information is bballref, and the weights are all wrong on that site for previous eras - so it's a big deal.. They say Kareem weighted about 220 and he's closer to 250

these are massive discrepancies that make previous eras look like string beans

carry on and keep deflecting the facts

“Facts”.

Looks like when the US actually bother to try when it counts they can cope with South Sudan

Croatia almost lost to Angola in 92 who were terrible.

Question - Is international talent better now or 92?

Imagine not knowing that players weights change from season to season.

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PLAYOFFS

85-93' Jordan........ 35/7/7.... (6.6 apg)
06-14' Lebron....... 28/8/6.... (6.4 apg)

Lebron assisted teammates less than Jordan for the first half of their chips, and wasn't required to be a good defender for the latter half (no all-defense in his 30's).

So Lebron isn't comparable to Jordan because Jordan scored more, passed more and defended more to win rings.

Harper was already washed and averaging 7 ppg on the 95' Bulls before MJ returned - he was considered a bum.

12 ppg?.... The average in the NBA is 11 ppg.... So I don't understand your point... it's easier to be an average player alongside Lebron?

It's certainly easier for stars or decorated players to become average because we saw Love, Bosh, Jamison, Hughes, IT and many more reduced from 20-25 ppg down to 12-15 immediately upon joining Lebron.. Only Lebron has a long list of bad teammates fits and teammates cratering alongside him, while MJ has no examples of bad fits - he actually has the goat record of teammate development and chemistry outside of Steph Curry (the goat in these areas).

Teammates play better with better chemistry, but Lebron is bad at chemistry (his skillset imposes spot-up roles) so teammates always underperform alongside him and he has zero young player development (zero young players grew from low producer to meaningful producer on his watch).

Kukoc came off the bench alongside MJ from 96-98'... Otherwise, starters played near capacity (near career highs) alongside MJ, while Lebron's teammates play nowhere near capacity.

Do I need to post the efficiency for Lebron's teammates in the 15' Finals or many other series??.. The story of Lebron's career is teammates playing like trash and underwhelming alongside him, so he always needs more help - this is the most consistent and reliable story of Lebron's career... Lebron's teammates playing like garbage and Lebron needing more help are guaranteed like the sun rising in the morning...

And this is regardless of cast... Every cast underwhelms because he's an assist hog (ball-dominator) that doesn't let the ball move to create great chemistry.. Lebron is the worst-ever at chemistry - this isn't my opinion - it's the historical record.. The reason he's so bad at chemistry is because he's the first high-scoring ball-dominator of the modern era, which imposes spot-up roles (reduces teammate APG and increases their assisted rate).. Numerous high-scoring ball-dominators have followed Lebron's tradition of bad chemistry and losing such as Luka, SGA, Harden or Westbrick.

When we look at the offensive efficiency of high ball movement and high-assist teams, we see that they destroy low-assist teams like Lebron's.. Teams that have 1 guy hogging the assists and employing the simpleton "down-hilll" skillset have weaker offenses and weaker-performing teammates than teams that move the ball and play 5-man basketball... Ball movement simply produces the best chemistry - this is bball 101... And the skillsets of expert jumpshooters like Curry or MJ allow this ball movement and the highest strategic capacity/coaching, while Lebron's high-scoring ball-dominance limits strategic capacity.

I like how it's LeBron's fault if efficiencies are down with team mates, but not MJ's fault when Pippen shoots like ****.

When I was at FIU, I was 6'6" and weighed 205 pounds..

According to bballref, Toni Kukoc weighed nearly 15 pounds less than me at 6'10".. He's listed at 192 pounds.. But he weighed at least 220.

You have no idea how crazy this is... There is a zero percent chance that I was bigger or weighed more than Kukoc.. I've seen bs like this for years on the site but only recently did I happen to have the website open while I was watching a game of Dennis Johnson - Johnson's weight of 202 popped up on the screen, so I figured that bballref listed him far lower than that and I was right... And this is the STANDARD - player weights in previous eras are massively deflated.

The weights on bballref have always been absurdly low and I don't think it can be explained by recording the high school or college weights of these guys.. The weights are so low and absurd that I think it's on purpose.

Yeah Isaiah Thomas was a superstar, then he played 15 games with LeBron and LeBron ruined his career. I guess he would've had a hall of fame career otherwise. LeBron just injected him with aids or something.

The difference is that MJ could beat top teams with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, while Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick.. This means that MJ could carry bed-wetting sidekicks or weak help over top teams, while Lebron couldn't and never did.

Secondly, as we saw in Houston, Pippen generally overperformed his true capacity alongside MJ, while guys like Bosh, Love, Jamison, Hughes, Ingram, IT, Westbrook and more usually underperformed their true capability alongside Lebron.. Lebron clearly reduced all these guys, while Jordan grew Pippen into what he became...

So that's a pretty big difference.

Again, MJ could still carry that crap to titles - he could beat top teams with bed-wetting teammates, while Lebron can't and never did.

Lebron lost as a -700 favorite with the 3rd ranked defense and 18 on 38% from Mo, while MJ never lost with this kind of offense from Pippen and a top 10 defense... And he actually won with worse than this from Pippen all the time.. Of course we know that MJ could carry the scoring load because the ball still moved while he was scoring a lot, so he had sufficient brand at high volume to beat top teams.. Otoh, Lebron is too ball-dominant at high scoring levels to beat top teams, and therefore needs all-time scoring help.

Perfect summary.

It was a horrific fit that everyone saw instantly - it was basically another Westbrook fit and everyone knew right away that IT had to go

IT, Westbrook, Clarkson, Hughes, Jamison, Love, Bosh, Ingram, Kuzma - so many horrific fits - it's unprecedented and it confirms that Lebron's skillset has the worst chemistry ever, which is why he cannot compete on the championship level (lottery record on championship level).

And we know WHY his chemistry is the worst - he's the first high-scoring ball-dominator of the modern era, which imposes spot-up roles (reduces teammate APG and increases their assisted rate).. Numerous high-scoring ball-dominators have followed Lebron's tradition of bad chemistry and losing such as Luka, SGA, Harden or Westbrick.

It's not like IT ever did anything, anywhere else after that 15 game stretch. So did LeBron inject him with career ending aids in just 15 games? Starting from that season IT sucked anywhere and everywhere he played.

Bosh went from the best player on a bad team, to the 3rd option on a great team. So he got 2 less FGA's per game and 2 less FTA's per game. Doesn't seem all that noteworthy really.

Let me guess, it's all part of a conspiracy to stop everyone from noticing that LeBron's ball dominator style always causes bed wetting.

MJ built Pippen up to the bricklayer that he was and could still win with it, while Lebron reduced guys to bricklayers and couldn't win with them.

Pretty big difference.

But the overriding point is that high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka or Lebron have a long list of reducing teammates and bad fits (Brunson, Porzingas, Bosh, Love, Ingram, Westbrook, Jamison, Hughes, IT), while expert jumpshooters like Curry and Jordan had a long list of great fits and teammate development (Poole, Wiggins, Klay, Dray, Pippen, BJ, Grant)... Ball movement clearly yields better chemistry and better-performing teammates than high-scoring ball-domination.

Ultimately, the difference in chemistry or teammate development between ball-dominators and expert jumpshooters is night and day, and it's skillset-based
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Ingram and Kuzma were on the upswing before Lebron but then lower across the board WITH Lebron in 2019:

18' Ingram............ 13.8 PER... 0.068 WS/48... 0.4 VORP... -1.2 BPM
19' Ingram............ 13.4 PER... 0.055 WS/48... 0.0 VORP... -2.0 BPM

18' Kuzma............. 14.2 PER... 0.077 WS/48... 0.8 VORP... -0.7 BPM
19' Kuzma............. 14.0 PER... 0.065 WS/48... 0.4 VORP... -1.4 BPM

Compare that to Pippen growing by leaps and bounds alongside MJ every year..

Kuzma was eventually reduced to a 13 ppg trash player alongside Lebron, but is now a 22 ppg respected player - imagine if he never escaped bron-ball!!!!.. He would be out of the league by now - Lebron nearly ruined his career.

Unfortunately, others weren't fortunate enough to escape bron-ball like Ingram and Kuzma did... Hughes never escaped - he had a couple career years alongside an expert jumpshooter (Arenas), but then cratered to nothing alongside Lebron-ball.. Love and Bosh were also reduced massively - many 3rd option average 20+, so there's no excuse... Jamison averaged 20 as third option in 2007 and was averaging 22 right before cratering to 15 alongside Lebron..

Then of course there's the Westbrook debacle - the worst fit in the history of basketball - the 2 biggest ball-dominators and turnover machines in history trying to play together... lol...

Ultimately, MJ built Pippen up to a bricklayer and then mostly won with him, while Lebron reduced guys to bricklayers mostly lost with them.
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