LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
there's nothing great about what fallguy does.
I never said this team was better than 92. I'm just saying the way to compare them is not to say "The 92 team blew out everybody at the Olympics".
K fair enough .
Cause you had me going :
2024 team might be the 2nd greatest team assembled. International players have got better.
Both of these can be true.
Basketball has randomness about it. A lot of variance, particularly with 3 pointers. That's why the USA might not win gold. But if they were all 7 game series, the USA are a lock for gold.
Player hater HoF, given your drive to post on a million forums and usernames I think you might be the goat hater
I post on 1 other forum, with 1 username.. The mods on that site don't like me of course and they say that I have many usernames, but it's a lie - any poster on there knows when I logon to that site and when I log off, and it's pretty obvious that I have one screenname.. The mods just don't like me for obvious reasons... They stole my famous "3ball" screenname and won't give it back.
Your ability to only look at the tiniest sample sizes and ignore everything thing else is remarkable.
You need a bird's eye view, so here you go:
The US has a massive talent advantage, so why are we consistently dominated and down 17 points to Serbia or South Sudan?.. Why doesn't our margin of victory match our massive talent advantage?...
bball 101 tells the story... Teams win due to advantages in talent and/or brand of ball, so if a team's margin of victory doesn't match a superior talent advantage, it's because of inferior brand of ball... You could put the 04' team out there and we would still have a massive talent advantage, but our brand of ball and chemistry was garbage back then too.. Ever since MJ retired, the US undertook a 1-on-1 brand of ball that has subsisted in some fashion for the last 20 years, which has caused us to lose in 02', 04', 06', 19', 23' and nearly this year.
No one cares about the blowouts.. The most valuable player is revealed in the close games when an MVP is actually needed, and that was clearly Steph - he averaged 30 in the last 2 games, compared to 15 for Lebron, while also having the GOAT clutch that we've ever seen.. If Lebron had done that and the MVP went to the assist guy like Draymond or Nash or something (assuming they were on the team), everyone would be saying it was a travesty - Lebron would threaten to quit basketball or something.
But for Curry, it's par for the course - this isn't the first time the media has crapped on the only guy that they think they would have a chance in a fight - this might not be the reason why the media has bias against Curry, but it's got to be something, because this sh*t is ridiculous.
There's an argument for Curry as GOAT because he introduced the world to a superior way of playing, and he's the very best at this new, superior way.... Only a few players outside of MJ, Curry and maybe 1 or 2 others have simple cases for goat that can be explained easily without having to get into the weeds and cite individual performances.
3ball is so famous I agree.
You should start a TripleThreat account, but they'd steal that one too!
What's the meaning behind "fallguy"?
Is it that if you don't stan for Jordan, you'd fall for any GOAT?
I think Lebron averaged 5 turnovers in 25 MPG in this tourney and obviously got outplayed by Curry in the only close games of the tourney
MVP doh
Wait this thread has really been going since 2013?
I had that dude on ignore and I definitely don't remember him since my return. Nor this thread.
Was there a merge?
Was there a merge?
I don't believe so.
Everyone thinks the US would still win the tourney without Lebron right?.. Curry's magic was irreplaceable, while Lebron's hustle, passing and rebounding were 100% replaceable.
The ball would've moved more without Lebron and the rotations would've been easier, so the margin of victory would've matched the team's enormous talent advantage..
Champion Tatum would've gotten more minutes and played better perimeter defense, while the team would've maintained momentum better without Lebron getting 5 turnovers per game in 25 MPG.
I forgot about that one..
Admittedly, the criteria that I developed to legitimately rank Lebron outside of the top 10 took years to fully flesh out.. The idea was to create a top 10 that excluded Lebron, where comments that de-legitimize the list were impossible, such as "Kawhi number 8.. Excellent".
And I eventually succeeded in creating a legit option for a top 10 list that didn't include Lebron, and it didn't have any clear-cut discrepancies or holes in the logic.
So you went out of your way to create a system so you could rank LeBron out of the top 10. And it took you years to work out a system to do it.
You had a result you wanted. And then created rules to make sure that happened.
I'm assuming you are not a scientist. Though you will do great in politics.
I mean you can't seriously think Kawhi is better than LeBron?
it's necessary to have a top 10 that excludes Lebron since he never learned how to win - he quit the organic learning curve that forces a player to learn the required chemistry to win with what he has.
But Jordan learned it (the chemistry required to win with what he had)... So did Curry, Jokic ,Bird, and Isiah...
And Duncan already knew it coming into the league as the most fundamental big ever.
Otoh, Lebron didn't finish learning it even though he was almost there.. He couldn't deal with 1 bad beat.. His timing was horrible because there was a 1-star organic chip up for grabs in 2011, and Dirk grabbed it.. Perfect karma..
By not finishing the organic learning curve (chemistry), Lebron chose talent-based winning, aka all-star team strategy and team-hopping.. He never fixed the holes in his game that was preventing the chemistry development, i.e. imposing spot-up roles via high-scoring ball-domination... Since he never learned elite chemistry, all losses are blamed on insufficient talent, even if his roster is the most stacked in the league with guys like wood, kuzma, dinwiddie and more BURIED on the bench.
So you went out of your way to create a system so you could rank LeBron out of the top 10. And it took you years to work out a system to do it.
You had a result you wanted. And then created rules to make sure that happened.
I'm assuming you are not a scientist. Though you will do great in politics.
I mean you can't seriously think Kawhi is better than LeBron?
Having Kawhi at #8 was part of the years of "fleshing out" that I mentioned - it took years to develop viable, intuitive criteria that could legitimately exclude Lebron from the top 10.
Again, it's necessary to have a top 10 that excludes Lebron since he never learned how to win - he quit the organic learning curve that forces a player to learn the required chemistry to win with what he has.
But Jordan learned it (the chemistry required to win with what he had)... So did Curry, Jokic ,Bird, and Isiah...
Otoh, Lebron didn't finish learning it even though he was almost there.. He couldn't deal with 1 bad beat.. His timing was horrible because there was a 1-star organic chip up for grabs in 2011, and Dirk grabbed it.. Perfect karma..
By not finishing the organic learning curve (chemistry), Lebron chose talent-based winning, aka all-star team strategy and team-hopping.. He never fixed the holes in his game that was preventing the chemistry development, i.e. imposing spot-up roles via high-scoring
... Since he never learned elite chemistry, all losses are blamed on insufficient talent, even if his roster is the most stacked in the league with guys like wood, kuzma, dinwiddie and more BURIED on the bench.
Having Kawhi at #8 was part of the years of "fleshing out" that I mentioned - it took years to develop viable, intuitive criteria that could legitimately exclude Lebron from the top 10.
Again, it's necessary to have a top 10 that excludes Lebron since he never learned how to win - he quit the organic learning curve that forces a player to learn the required chemistry to win with what he has.
But Jordan learned it (the chemistry required to win with what he had)... So did Curry, Jokic ,Bird, and Is
Why the arbitrary cutoff at top 10? Why is he in your top 20 if he never learned to win? Surely there are 20 guys that have learned to win.
I'm curious to know how Kawhi learnt to win. Being drafted to a team with Duncan/Parker/Bald guy helps I guess.
Then going to a 59 win team and having the Warriors go through a bunch of 1% injuries events so he could win there.
Then stacking the decks and going to LA to a 48 win team with the guy that finished third in the MVP for that season. And then proceeding to lose time and time again.
If LeBron is a loser, I'd hate to think of what you actually truly believe of this chump.
lol just realised Kareem isn't on the Top 10 list.
Another LeBran L that I wasnt aware of...
I'm actually surprised it's not
1) Jordan
2) Malone
3) Stockton
4) kemp
5) Barkley
6) Magic
7) Drexler
8) Payton
9) Marley
10) Brickowski.
Just to make MJ look better.
This is like the scene from the Big Short where the New York boys can't understand why the dumb Floridian mortgage guys are "confessing", until they twig that they are actually bragging.
I'm curious to know how Kawhi learnt to win. Being drafted to a team with Duncan/Parker/Bald guy helps I guess.
Then going to a 59 win team and having the Warriors go through a bunch of 1% injuries events so he could win there.
Then stacking the decks and going to LA to a 48 win team with the guy that finished third in the MVP for that season. And then proceeding to lose time and time again.
If LeBron is a loser, I'd hate to think of what you actually truly believe of this chump.
It took years to determine the final top 10 and Kawhi was only in there briefly in 2021 when I had the breakthrough about Curry and decided to completely re-do my top 10.. With Curry now in my top 10, this allowed the possibility for Lebron to be completely out of the top 10... I jumped at this opportunity and started to overhaul my top 10... And the initial top 10 with Kawhi didn't include any big men (I tried a "no big man" top 10, hence the KAJ omission), but I came around on that eventually too.
My final top 10 ranks the skillsets that required the least help to win to win the most, which means that the best expert jumpshooters are at the top of the list (MJ, Kobe, Curry, Bird), followed by the best centers (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq), followed by the best ball-dominators (Magic, Lebron)... History shows that the ability to win with less help is infact skillset-based and my rankings account for this - jumpshooters and centers simply allow better ball movement and better chemistry than ball-dominators, so they win more with less.
I'm actually surprised it's not
1) Jordan
2) Malone
3) Stockton
4) kemp
5) Barkley
6) Magic
7) Drexler
8) Payton
9) Marley
10) Brickowski.
Just to make MJ look better.
you ignored the date that the top 10 with Kawhi was posted (2021), and appeared to misunderstand the timeline of how my rankings evolved, but I cleared that up in the previous post.
it's viable and intuitive to rank players based on who needed the least help to win, and this approach leaves Lebron out of the top 10.. Accept this reality that someone found a viable way to exclude Lebron from the top 10...
And again, it's necessary to have a top 10 without Lebron because he never learned how to win - he quit the organic learning curve that forces a player to learn the required chemistry to win with what he has... But Jordan learned it (the chemistry required to win with what he had)... So did Curry, Jokic ,Bird, and Isiah...
Otoh, Lebron didn't finish learning it even though he was almost there - he couldn't deal with 1 bad beat and quit.. His timing was horrible because there was a 1-star organic chip up for grabs in 2011, and Dirk grabbed it.. Perfect karma..
.
Olympics
24' Lebron....... 14.2 ppg... 4.0 tov....1.3 steals... 2 to 1 assist-turnover ratio... 24 MPG
92' Jordan........ 14.9 ppg... 1.3 tov... 4.1 steals... 4 to 1 assist-turnover ratio... 23 MPG
^^^ Compared to MJ, Lebron cost his team SIX POSSESSIONS per 24 minutes by virtue of getting 3 more turnovers and 3 less steals per game, so MJ drastically outplayed Lebron... :shocked:
The 92' team also out-assisted their opponents by 239 to 109 for the tournament, while the 24' team might've been out-assisted by opponents or certainly didn't have the massive gap that the 92' team had.. We'll find out soon when the numbers are updated on bballref... The 24' team getting less assists is a direct result of bron-ball (lebron hogging the assists via ball-domination)..
Again, unlike the 24' team and their "down-hill" skillsets, the 92' team played 5-man basketball, which produces superior chemistry and brand of ball, thereby yielding a margin of victory that matched their massive talent edge.
