LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
You think Allen didn’t save LeBron legacy ???
Imagine goat in his prime with super team in a non existent competitive east being dominated twice by 36-37 years old past prime Duncan …
Duncan would finish 3-0 in finals vs the goat .
Blah blah Kobe, blah blah Pau, blah blah chemistry. Who gives a **** at this point?
The GOAT's career will soon move into its 22nd season, fresh off an Olympic MVP. I feel sorry for those imprisoned by the past.
Which other goat u know that have such a high career losses ?
So it’s only about stats ?
I’ll take wilt then , far more physically gifted than LeBron too btw ….
Fallguy - Thoughts on the following series from Kobe? I mean if LeBron had any of these you'd be all over him for being terrible.
Lebron had a lot of bad-shooting series too - not as many as Kobe, but it's common knowledge that Lebron sacrifices ball movement, brand of ball and great teams for his drive-heavy game and higher efficiency.
Lebron had a lot of bad-shooting series too - not as many as Kobe, but it's common knowledge that Lebron sacrifices ball movement, brand of ball and great teams for his drive-heavy game and higher efficiency.
Just for record keeping purposes I posted Kobe with 14 series where he shot less than 41.2%. You posted 4 for LeBron. And LeBron played a hell of a lot more series.
In fact you posted a series where LeBron shot 44.9% as evidence as a "poor shooting series". Fun Fact - Kobe's career playoff shooting is 44.8%. So LeBron's poor is still better than Kobe's average. How embarrassing is that for you?
Anyway, the more you look into Kobe's career the more you realise there's never been a superstar that has had to be carried more.
lol Kobe's Finals shooting percentage is 41% (31% from 3).
Wow.
lol Kobe in Game 7s averages 22ppg on 38%.
Lucky Pau hit that game winner in Game 6. Lakers had no chance in Game 7.
Jumpshooting skill will always have lower FG% than a rim attack, but the superior benefits of jumpshooting such as lower turnovers, better ball movement & chemistry, teammate development & elevation, and better teams clearly outweigh a sheer comparison of FG%.
Specifically, we know that Lebron's higher-efficiency rim attack has high turnovers and low chemistry that has lost many series.. This includes the 07' Finals where he averaged 6 turnovers per game and 35% shooting - Kobe never had this combination of AIDS... And Lebron's first-ever choke was his 7 turnovers in the 4th quarter of Game 4 during the 09' ECF - he became a 12 turnover per game player in clutch time of that series, so he lost the series as a lock and -700 favorite...
Lebron also had high-turnovers to lose 4 straight fourth-quarter leads in the 23' WCF, or choke away the 08' ECSF... Meanwhile, his weak chemistry produced 7 losses with favored talent, such as losing with the preseason favorites or homecourt advantage, or 3 losses with 2 all-star teammates, or the worst championship record in 3-pointer history.. Lebron's brand of high efficiency, high turnovers and low chemistry cannot compete on the championship level by virtue of having a lottery record in the Finals.
Just for record keeping purposes I posted Kobe with 14 series where he shot less than 41.2%. You posted 4 for LeBron. And LeBron played a hell of a lot more series.
In fact you posted a series where LeBron shot 44.9% as evidence as a "poor shooting series". Fun Fact - Kobe's career playoff shooting is 44.8%. So LeBron's poor is still better than Kobe's average. How embarrassing is that for you?
Anyway, the more you look into Kobe's career the more you realise there's never been a superstar that ha
Seem Shaq needed carry too .
I mean who shaq won with ?
Kobe and dwade ?
Those seem pretty good players .
And when Shaq didn’t had those what he did ? Got swept ?
Kobe had Pau …and Shaq .
Kobe won 2 without Shaq .
Shaq won 1 without Kobe .
Who got more help ? Who won more ?
And when u go see in more details who Shaq had to face to win ?
The only center he had to face that had any kind of value when he won was Robinson at like 36 years old .Mutombo at 34 years old ?
Yeah shaq dominate early 2000 but he dominated who exactly ?
Have been saying it for years , shaq couldn’t win when real big men’s was a thing in the 90s up to when they all retire or reach 35+ years old ….
Ps: and who LeBron had to have to win half his ring ?
Dwade again …
Bashes Lebron's godlike finishing, posts 35 gifs of Jordan being forced into much lower % contested shots at the rim.
ITT, Hakeem was slow and equivalent to Rudy Gobert, LeBron isn't top-10, Hughes/Mo/Jamison/Z were all better than Pippen, Love was a top-3 player in the league when he joined Cleveland, Kobe is 10 spots ahead of LeBron and ahead of everyone in the history of basketball other than MJ because long-2-point jumpshooting is better than taking it to the hole decades of consensus logic and research because reasons.
Thread keeps delivering.
Anyway FG, if LeBron had any of those series I mentioned or that series in the first round where Pau saved him from being eliminated you would use it against him in any GOAT discussion. But it's Kobe, so he gets a pass. Complete double standards.
Anyway let's move on, this thread is for real GOAT candidate only, not guys that are around 15 on the GOAT list.
Jumpshooting skill will always have lower FG% than a rim attack, but the superior benefits of jumpshooting such as lower turnovers, better ball movement & chemistry, teammate development & elevation, and better teams clearly outweigh a sheer comparison of FG%.
Specifically, we know that Lebron's higher-efficiency rim attack has high turnovers and low chemistry that has lost many series.. This includes the 07' Finals where he averaged 6 turnovers per game and 35% shooting -
Did Kobe's teams rank higher relative to the league in points-per-100?
I don't know. Just asking.
If Kobe's teams did rank higher, I assume you'll look it up.
ORtg ranks
Kobe's teams after Prime Shaq, starting at age-26:
2004-05 - t12th
2005-06 - t7th
2006-07 - 5th
2007-08 - 4th
2008-09 - 3rd
2009-10 - 12th
2010-11 - 9th
2010-11 was LeBron's age-26 season. Here are his teams' ranks over the next seven years:
2010-11 - 8th
2011-12 - 7th
2012-13 - 5th
2013-14 - 12th
2014-15 - 8th
2015-16 - 8th
2016-17 - 4th
I don't think there's an argument that Kobe was a better basketball player than LeBron, but this could be an argument that it was easier to build an offense around Kobe.
Anyway FG, if LeBron had any of those series I mentioned or that series in the first round where Pau saved him from being eliminated you would use it against him in any GOAT discussion. But it's Kobe, so he gets a pass. Complete double standards.
They both had numerous bad series and they get knocked for these lows, but Kobe gets put over Lebron because of his highs... Specifically, when each guy got "help", kobe produced better teams and won more with less by going back-to-back with a bosh or love-caliber at SECOND option - this is objectively superior to Lebron winning less frequently with bosh or love at THIRD option.
Ultimately, Kobe's goat scoring diversity produced great chemistry and "unbeatable" teams that mostly won for stretches, while "bron-ball" chemistry isn't capable of unbeatable teams and mostly loses regardless of cast..
Anyway FG, if LeBron had any of those series I mentioned or that series in the first round where Pau saved him from being eliminated you would use it against him in any GOAT discussion. But it's Kobe, so he gets a pass. Complete double standards.
Lebron confirmed that he can't 3-peat with Shaq, since he went 1/4 everyone and needed a miracle to go 2/4 with Wade/Bosh.. He also confirmed that he can't win with a low-producer like Pau, since Pau requires the 1st option to carry the scoring load - we know that Lebron never did this successfully against the top teams due to excessive ball-dominance at high scoring volumes..
The argument for Kobe over Lebron is a simple one:
Kobe is superior to Lebron at basketball because his skillset achieved superior teams and won more with less.
Specifically, Kobe's goat scoring diversity achieved great chemistry and teammate elevation, which allowed better teams and winning with less (such as repeating with Love at 2nd option instead of 3rd) - this superior chemistry and team ceilings contrasts with Lebron's low scoring diversity and ball-domination, which imposed spot-up roles and needy teams that mostly lose regardless of cast.
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Btw, in addition to the many examples posted earlier, another example of Lebron's goat turnover levels causing his team to underperform would be the 24' Olympics because he averaged 5 turnovers in 24 MPG - this equals 6-7 turnovers for an NBA game.. The constant stream of turnovers kept halting chemistry for team USA, which caused the margin of victory to fall short of our talent advantage..
Consider that Jokic's chemistry was so much better that he dominated our superior talent with a 1-man team.. People forget that we were dominated by Serbia for basically the entire game - only the placebo effect saved us - years of inflated fake media coverage was the only thing propping up our confidence.. Our Olympic performance couldn't have been less impressive, aside from Curry's goat-caliber.
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MJ was the quickest player and had the best moves, so he rarely needed counter-moves, but he had historic counters:
And we all remember the double-dip on Rex Chapman that Kobe copied:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V80j-q52...
boom
that's why i didn't understand why FP was bragging about Lebron's numbers, but now I see that he meant Game 7... But who cares about 40 points in Game 7 when you average 23.7 on 32% with 5.8 turnovers for the first 6?... Imagine if Lebron wasn't the worst player ever for the first 6 games of the 08' ECSF.. If he just plays like a normal person then the Cavs "best in the league" defense would've carried them to another conference title.
in addition to the 08' ECSF, Lebron did the same thing in the 2013 Finals and 2016 Finals - he averaged 16 on 39% for the first 3 games to get in a 1-2 deficit (23 on 43% thru 6), and then 24 and 6 TO's for the first 4 games of the 16' Finals to get in another hole - teammate miracles bailed him out both times.
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MJ beat Ewing, Zo, Shaq and Smits a total of 7 times despite Pippen MIA each time, so why can't Lebron beat Dwight as a bigger favorite with more help on both sides of the ball (better team defense and better offense from Mo)?
2009 MO VS DWIGHT...... 18 on 38%.... #3 team defense
1989 PIP VS EWING......... 15 on 40%... #11 team defense
1992 PIP VS EWING......... 16 on 40%.... #4 team defense
1997 PIP VS ALONZO....... 17 on 42%.... #4 team defense
1998 PIP vs SMITS'........... 16 on 39%.... #3 team defense
1996 PIP VS EWING'......... 15 on 33%.... #1 team defense
1996 PIP VS SHAQ'........... 18 on 45%.... #1 team defense
The 2009 Cavs were one of the 10 biggest favorites in history to lose a playoff series.. The Magic also had the injury excuse by missing their all-star point guard, but still won.
This historic upset occurred because Lebron had 7 turnovers in the 4th quarter of Game 4, which swung the series.. This goat butterfingers in the clutch included becoming a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time for the series (12 turnovers per 48 min of clutch-time).. He also made a historic defensive error by guarding the short Courtney Lee instead of providing the size/agility needed to guard his own position (forward), who were key factors in deciding the series...
Due to these 2 factors (clutch turnover machine & defensive blunder), the 09' ECF was Lebron's first big choke that was followed by greater chokes in 10' and 11' (the grandaddy of all chokes).
I bet if The Cavs had Pau Gasol and Lakers had Mo
Then Cavs ship
And Lakers bust in the first round
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BEFORE JOINING LEBRON OR KOBE
Pau............ 1x all-star..... 0x All-NBA
Bosh,......... 6x all-star.... 1x All-NBA
Love........... 3x all-star.... 2x All-NBA
^^^ Bosh and Love > Pau
I bet if The Cavs had Pau Gasol and Lakers had Mo
Then Cavs ship
And Lakers bust in the first round
Since Lebron barely won with third options that were better than Pau, how could he win with Pau at second option?
Makes no sense.
Lebron-ball never produced sufficient chemistry to win with that little talent, and he also can't carry the scoring load, as Pau requires (too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams).
Basketball fit matters. LeBron's fit with Wade was notoriously piss poor and not that great with Bosh. Lebron going inside/outside with someone like Pau would've been a great fit.
You're either being incredibly disingenuous or don't understand basketball at its very core. Heck, or both.
