LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

I'm not denigrating Pau - it's the media, fans and coaches that gave more all-star nods and MVP consideration to Jamison and nothing for Pau by 2008 - so I'm just pointing out how Jamison was considered on the same level as Pau, but Jamison didn't get elevated by Kobe to perennial All-NBA and champion like Pau did.. That's the only difference.

FG = Do you honestly believe that Hughes is a better player than Pippen?

Kobe only finished in the Top 2 of the MVP twice. Yet somehow he is a Top 2 player of all time.

Kobe has only been the best player on a Championship team twice. Somehow he's the 2nd GOAT.

Kobe went 3 years in his prime without winning a playoff series (including missing the playoffs). Somehow he is the second GOAT.

Kobe is one of the worst all time Game 7 players. Somehow he is the 2nd GOAT.

R.I.P. fallguy

he only uses 90 Pippen because 91- Pippen is miles better. He gives all of Pippen's improvement credit to Jordan though.

he talks about how all the players that were "better" than 90 Pippen should have meant easy rings for Lebron, but Jordan didn't win with 90 Pippen, and those supposed superstars all look bad compared to 91-98 Pippen

You really believe Jordan 0 lost in finals have more weight then winning 6 times ?
Well I guess Jordan did great in retiring so many times to have so few lost in the finals despite every try for pushing longevity.
Carmelo his as great as mj , he didn’t lost in the final either .

Ps: and yet mj losses was often vs nba champion anyway shrug .
You just complain about which stage they played on .

But hey , Lebron play offs record would be worst if he would not have miss the playoffs on purpose either right ?

How many nba final mvp pippen got ?

When Kobe won with Pau in 2010 , how many HoF 75 top players he had and how many did he beat vs the Celtics ?

Pippen played with 2 other top 75 players HoF in 1999 lost in first round …

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Kemp drastically outplayed Pippen against the same playoff opponent (98' Pacers):

Kemp vs 98' Pacers........... 26 on 47% (carrying Big Z)
Pippen vs 98' Pacers......... 16 on 39% (carried by MJ)

Reggie Miller drastically outplayed Pippen 6 of 6 times against the same playoff opponent:

R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF................. 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF................. 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage

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Lebron received 4 players that were superior to 1990 Pippen but his simpleton "bron-ball" skillset couldn't develop them or win anything with them:

05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

3rd-year Horry outplayed Pippen against the 95' Magic, and Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from 95' Finals:

1995 Playoffs vs Magic

Horry............ 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS... 19.0 gmsc
Pippen'......... 19/10/6/1/1 on 52 TS... 15.8 gmsc


FINALS

95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS

Are you aware that Pippen cost peak Jordan 3 rings from 88-90'?

Do you realize that?

Not only was he complete trash for 2 years, but he literally missed the closeout games in 89' and 90' - people think he only had the migraine in 1990, but his first one was 1989 when he missed Game 6, and basically Game 5 too.. Essentially, MJ lost those series in 6 and 7 games because Pigpen missed the closeout games both years... Given how close MJ got in 89' and 90' with Pippen being so bad, (i.e. 0.083 ws/48), it wouldn't take much of a replacement for Pippen to put MJ over the top those years.

Many guys were better than 88-90' Pippen, not just Hughes.. Lebron received 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen, such as Hughes, Jamison, Mo, or Zydrunas - the numbers show this clearly in previous post.

And do you realize that Horry was a rookie-starter with double-figures, and then he was the 2nd-best player on a title team as sophomore, and then he played better than Pippen ever did in the Finals during his 3rd year??.. (see previous post).

All of that is significantly better than young Pippen..

Accordingly, considering how close MJ got with a trashy Pippen in 89' and 90', he certainly would've won titles those years with a player as lightly-regarded as Horry in Pippen's place.

They're the same player except 1 guy plays guard, while the other guy plays forward and landed in a better situation.. Hughes is the guard-version of Pippen but with a luck deficit that exceeds his height deficit.

If an off-guard like Arenas produced an amazing fit and brought out the best in Hughes, then a superior off-guard like MJ would do the same thing .. He literally did that with Pippen, who went from 8 ppg to 20 ppg, and Hughes was considered far better than Pippen at all the young ages.. That's something younger guys don't understand - guys like Wiggins, Hughes, Worthy, and thousands of others were considered far better than Pippen at the ages of 18-24 and projected far higher than Pippen.. MJ and the triangle simply camouflaged Pippen's low peak capability (not dominant) and simpleton transition skillset - they saved him... Pippen was nothing outside the triangle that he took years to learn, and this was proven in 1999 with the Rockets - it's well-documented that they couldn't believe how bad he was.

Ultimately, there has never been a front office that drafted an 8 ppg rookie that needed a ton of development and said "Okay that's it!!!.. We have what we need!!! Titles incoming!!!"... No one said that with Pippen and no one thought the Bulls would win anything even heading into the 1991 season..
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(MVP has never been "best player" - Nash has more MVP than Kobe and Rose has equal number - MVP count means little and you rarely hear me cite MJ's edge in MVP's or MVP frequency compared to Lebron.. Who gives a crap about the group-think of a few dozen media members - Rachel Nichols and Skip Bayless - journalism majors... Otoh, the all-star appearances actually mean more because it's based on bigger sample and consensus of coaches and fans.

Kobe's rings with Pau were won in a very rare and difficult way by defeating max defensive attention, aka carrying the scoring load for the regular season, playoffs and Finals.. By carrying the scoring load, Kobe could win with less such as a 2nd option that was worse than Bosh or Love.

Furthermore, Kobe elevated a perennial loser and sweep artist in Shaq to towering heights that Penny, Wade and Lebron failed to do - Kobe and MJ are the goat scorers and therefore the KEYS that unlocked the triangle and made it famous.. Dominating the triangle as a perimeter player is a goat demonstration of skill and ability..

Lebron and Kobe missed the playoffs in the same year (05'), except Lebron had an all-star teammate and Kobe had Smush Parker.

Lebron also missed the playoffs in his prime (2019), so between missing the playoffs with an all-star teammate and then again in 2019 - that's comparable to Kobe's down seasons.. Lebron also had bad seasons with Westbrook or 2008 before Mo's spacing arrived.

irrelevant.. lebron is one of the worst 1-4 game players... you want examples?

Kobe barely made the playoffs with 27 year old Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, Steve Nash, that's 3 top 75 players for sure. Artest as well. That team is on the short list of all time underachievers. Kobe also didn't win in a season where he was teamed up with Shaq, Malone and Payton, another 3 from that list. While some of these players weren't in their prime years, they were all still starters and all played most of the games in those seasons. Every single one of them was playing 30+ minutes per game. Those were 2 of the biggest underachieving teams of that era.

You have Kobe number 2 all time when there was probably never even a 5 year stretch where he was even the 2nd most valuable player in the league. It's laughable.

It's all part and parcel - it's a confluence of events coming together that are all related.. By landing alongside a player that could carry the scoring load, there was no urgent rush for Pippen and he was given 4 years to learn a role in a system.. However, this system was only possible because MJ's skillset allowed it... It would never have worked if MJ was a ball-dominator and PNR spammer that imposed spot-up roles because the triangle didn't use PNR's and Pippen wasn't a spot-up shooter.. So Pippen just happened to land alongside the perfect player that could carry the scoring load the goat level required to win with Pippen at 2nd option, while also allowing a system that didn't turn Pippen into a spot-up shooter and allowed growth.

Essentially, no one got the goat environment for development that Pippen got, so other guys like Hughes fell off and looked more like Pippen in Houston, while Pippen got an extended tenure in a coddling system and a coddling 1st option that didn't require big numbers or ANY clutch from his sidekick..

It's noteworthy that you think Pippen was such a special player, while the truckloads of help that ball-dominators have is insufficient.. For example, what's the excuse for Luka not developing a champion with a stud like Brunson??.. the CORRECT answer is that Luka has major skill deficits and isn't a complete player on the offensive end of the floor.. Specifically, he's a horrible assist target and cannot play off teammates well (off-ball), which the Brunson/Luka duo reqiuires so that both guys can achieve elite stats at the same time., The same goes for other guys - Bosh, Love, Porzingas, Ingram, or 20k scorers like Jamison and many more - it's false to think they're trash and no one can have a dominant team with them... They just needed the right fit, chemistry and elite strategy, which is only guaranteed with the goat scoring diversity and/or shooting of MJ, Curry, Kobe, Bird and guys like that (guys that don't need to dominate the ball to get dominant stats).

Scottie PIppen was bad becuase he didn't get enough buckets is a braindead take.

You serious ?
Artest that season was his last full season played . Not hof .
He played 89 games in the next 4 years …he was finish .

Nash ? 38 years old Nash that played 50 games . Yup real power house .
I wonder why he only played his last 10 games in the nba the year after …

Pau didn’t even played 50 games that year …
Yeah he had Howard for 1 year , still not an HoF and obv not a 75 players yet .

And you surprise he didn’t perform great with that cast , really ?
And yes he lost vs the spurs , u know the team that was able to beat LeBron with his super team in Miami ….

Ps: Kobe did better than what Lebron did with 3 top old HoF players 75 top players ffs + Howard not reaching the playoffs…
Stop it and don’t say old when you used the cast of 2013 trying to prove something .

Yes 2004 was a **** show but I thought it was Shaq team and Kobe was being carried ?

That's a lot of words I'm not going to read. I asked a simple yes/no question.

I think that if you only rank in the Top 2 for 2 out of 19 seasons it does impact GOAT status. If MJ has only 2 top 2 finishes he's not the GOAT.

That second option saved Kobe in the first round one of those years and was just as good as him in the Finals that year.

Shaq had played 4 seasons pre-Kobe including making it to the Finals and ECF (and got beaten by the 2nd GOAT team). Your expectations are too high if you are expecting more out of a 4 year player. In comparison MJ was 4-15 in playoff games after 4 years (so I guess a losers as well).

LeBron was in his 2nd season ffs. For your records I'll repost Kobe's playoff stats in his second year.

Fun fact. You are calling 2019 LeBron's prime at 34. Kobe didn't even make the playoffs after 33.

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Not examples. Averages. Please compare Kobe Game 1-4 stats vs LeBron's.

Media members picking MVP - clowns pushing a narrative

Media members picking who is going to win the finals - irrefutable proof of who was favored to win, regardless of betting fav

If AD averaged 19 on 42% for his Finals career, or 17 on 41% in the playoffs, no amount of defense would prevent him from being ridiculed and immediately traded in the off-season..

This would NEVER be considered sufficient help for Lebron and he could never win with this caliber of scoring help.. Lebron never carried the scoring load on the championship level, and he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak help (weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick)... This is over massive sample sizes.

Bron is too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams and therefore needs exorbitant scoring help/star help.

MVP doesn't equal best player.. .This is common knowledge - Rose, Nash, Dirk, Barkley, Malone and others were never the best player... KG was never better than Kobe, yet he won MVP over him in 2005...

MVP is largely based on circumstance and honestly the programming whims of the media... Literally.. It's based on the type narrative that the media decides would be cool to talk about.. Heck, if Kyrie could've stayed healthy in 2018, he could've won MVP.. But he was nowhere near the best player in the league.

So the MVP argument has never had much legs and always been a tertiary argument.

Lebron was outscored by teammates in MANY SERIES - so you're referencing a 1st Round series but Lebron was outscored by teammates in the 1st Round, 2nd Round, ECF, and Finals..

Lebron was outscored and saved by teammates far more than Kobe.. You should stay away from scoring when comparing Lebron and Kobe because Kobe could carry the scoring load and Lebron cannot.. Lebron is too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams and therefore needs all-time scoring help and teammates that can be equal scoring threats.

Guys went to college back then for 3 and 4 years, so Shaq and Duncan were already monsters coming into the league - compare their rookie years to Lebron's 3rd or 4th season (except with fundamentals)

And this isn't a young player issue - Shaq was destroyed for his entire career except the brief stint with MJ's blueprint and protege... He should've 5-peated with Kobe but he didn't turn the reigns over to Kobe soon enough so the chemistry was bad in 2004.. But he should've won a few chips as 2nd option to Kobe like he did with Wade.

All-timers cannot lose with 1st-team All-NBA players like Penny... Penny was a Kobe-like, Wade or Tmac-caliber, yet Shaq was demolished repeatedly with him... Penny was a really amazing player, while Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott and the cast might've been the best in the league.

In contrast to Shaq losing a ton with star teammates, MJ was unbeatable the instant he got a single all-star - this is GOAT..... Everyone else in history needed many all-star teammates but won less..... Since MJ was unbeatable with 1 all-star, he never needed another one - this is unprecedented (not needing another all-star), yet MJ is punished for not needing any more stars (aka couldn't win without Pippen), while everyone else is rewarded for needing MANY star teammates and winning less with them.

Lebron was the same player in 2005 as he was in 2008 - he only took another step when Mo arrived in 2009 - that's obvious to anyone looking at his career.. Mo and Ray Allen provided the all-star spacing that Lebron's stiff-arm needs to win 60 and MVP (09', 13').

Fun fact - MJ was MVP, FMVP, 1st team defense and scoring champ at 35.

I meant to say that Lebron is a bad player for games 1 thru 6 - he has many egregious debacles that Kobe doesn't have such as:

Lebron's 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games of the 13' Finals and needed Ray to force Game 7... He also averaged 23 on 32% for the first 6 games of the 2008 ECSF..... He averaged 24 and 6 TO's for the first 4 games of the 16' Finals... He averaged 22 on 42% for the first 4 games of the 07' ECF... The list goes on and on - Lebron was a frequent bed-wetter that relied on miracles and injuries to overcome his trashy play and win close series.

Half the public including many people on this forum thought Dallas would win the Finals this year.

They thought Dallas would win even though they've watched another high-scoring ball-dominator have a lottery record on the championship level over a 21-year career.

[quote=ItsNeverBronsFault]

Dwight was eating the 09' ECF.. No one on the cavs could guard him

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The Magic achieved a 112.5 ORTG in 09' ECF, which is the same as the Cavs' regular season ORTG and less than their ORTG in the first 2 series.... So if the Cavs could've maintained their normal ORTG, they would've won the series..

Unfortunately, bron-ball isn't as effective against top teams - it loses some of its offensive efficiency because it begins to lose the "attrition battle" against top teams that have elite ball movement.. Losing the attrition battle means that bron-ball is no longer applying more pressure than it faces.. The opponent's ball movement is applying more pressure, so Lebron's team gets worn down more defensively than the opponent, and therefore has less offensive capacity as the series progresses - the opponent is more likely to "get hot" because they aren't working as hard defensively by virtue of facing an inferior brand of ball to their own..

Essentially, the opponent rests against bron's ball-domination, while lebron's team gets worn down by zippy ball movement and eventually can't hit the broadside of a barn.. We've seen elite ball movement teams like the Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs or Magic get hot on offense after resting against bron-ball, and then using zippy ball movement to wear down Lebron's team and turn them into a bunch of bricklayers.. We've seen it time and time again, and now we see it with Luka-ball too.. He'll break Lebron's record for worst Finals record.. Opponents literally take a nap while Luka dribbles the air out of the ball.. It's amazing that people are surprised when this brand has a lottery record on the championship level and opponents get hot against it, or when the brand mostly loses, regardless of cast.

Btw, in addition to employing the inferior brand of ball of high-scoring ball-domination (bron-ball), the other reasons that Lebron was massively upset in the 09' ECF are his 7 turnovers in the 4th quarter of Game 4 that swung the series - it was his first major choke - he turned into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time of that series, while also making a goat defensive blunder by guarding Lee instead of Hedo or Lewis.. So it was a series of errors that included defensive blunders, turnover machine and weak brand of ball that caused massive upset loss to Dwight's injured, 1-star team.

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3rd-year Horry outplayed Pippen against the 95' Magic, and Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from 95' Finals:

1995 Playoffs vs Magic

Horry............ 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS... 19.0 gmsc
Pippen'......... 19/10/6/1/1 on 52 TS... 15.8 gmsc


FINALS

95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS

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Lebron received 4 players that were superior to 1990 Pippen but his "bron-ball" skillset imposed spot-up roles, so he couldn't develop them or win anything with them like MJ did with Pippen:

05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

Many guys were better than 88-90' Pippen, not just Hughes.. Lebron received 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen, such as Hughes, Jamison, Mo, or Zydrunas, as the stats show above.

But the issue is that the bron-ball skillset imposes spot-up roles and cannot develop anyone, so he couldn't develop and win with 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen.

Heck, Robert Horry was a 2-time champion and easily better during his first 3 seasons than 88-90' Pippen.. Accordingly, considering how close MJ got with a trashy Pippen in 89' and 90', he certainly would've won titles those years with a player as lightly-regarded as Horry in Pippen's place..

So to answer your question - tons of guys were better than 88-90' Pippen, and Pippen's ineptitude during these years cost Jordan three titles... Meanwhile, the only thing that allowed Pippen to develop above his 1990 caliber was MJ's skillset and scoring diversity to fit into the triangle, which Pippen was nothing without..