LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Top 15 player of all time. smh.

Detailed analysis on how Michael Jordan’s role changed to become less ball dominant and involve teammates more when Phil Jackson and Tex Winter implemented the triangle offense:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B1VrTH32t1M&t=12s&pp=2AEMkAIB

YouTube

The Triangle Offense Explained - How It Helped Michael Jordan Lead The Bulls To Championships

Tex Winter describing how Michael Jordan was reluctant at first to have his role changed to involve his teammates more and become less ball dominant when he and Phil Jackson first tried to implement the triangle offense:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vF4gHRmVZ4w

YouTube

Tex Winter on How Michael Jordan Accepted the Triangle Offense 1992

Fallguy, because he does not understand basic basketball concepts, spewing nonsense about how players cannot change their role within a team when a coach implements a different offensive scheme (placeholder for future fallguy posts):

And, as above, MJ had MVPs and scoring titles behind him. And he got swayed by a rookie coach.

But LeBron, as a 20 year old, wouldn't have been able to be convinced by a 6 time Champion coach and a MVP candidate?

smh.

Remember that joke about a guy that asks his wife to make him both happy and sad at the same time, and she says "You have a bigger penis than your brother".

How do you make FG happy and sad at the same time?

Oscar, Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, Luka, and SGA are the only high-scoring point guards in history and none of them played off-ball in their primes... This is because none of them can get anywhere near 30/10/10 while playing off-ball, and coaches don't limit their top player by putting them at a position where their skills aren't as good - coaches didn't make Shaq shoot threes just like they don't make Luka or Lebron play off-ball..... And coaches didn't make Jordan play point guard either, except 25 games in 89' when Sam Vincent went down with injury.

However, Jordan was the exception like he always is, so his 25 games at a different position didn't yield the expected reduction in stats.. He instantly became the best-producing point guard in the league because he was the only high-scoring point guard and therefore 30 years ahead of his time and Luka or SGA.... Indeed, Jordan was a massive exception and people were saying that perhaps he should stay at point guard.. Again, this is the exception, which of course proves the rule.

Btw, on a possibly unrelated not, but just an FYI regarding the game of basketball - most coaches and people in the industry think about the game incorrectly in that they think it's correct to let the best player bring the ball up court and set up the offense - this is completely wrong because any bum can bring the ball up.. It's a robotic role and a waste of the team's top talent to have them bring the ball up... And any bum can set up the offense - see Derek Fisher or John Paxson... The aspect of the game that the bums CAN'T do is close a possession - that's where you need your best player to control games by closing as many possessions as needed to win.

Well, a great off-ball player like Jordan certainly provides title equity, but Jordan's 1st team defense for all 6 chips provides title equity too, or his superior offensive rebounding, blocks, steals, or co-leading the rebounding with Rodman for the 97' Playoffs, or leading the team in assists for his Finals career and 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, or more APG than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff careers (thru half their chips until the Curry era started in 2015 that made offense easier for everyone - only then did Lebron start to lead MJ in playoff APG.. carry on)

Pippen 14th goat.

TIL Steph isn't a high scoring PG

by Matt R. k

Detailed analysis on how Michael Jordan’s role changed to become less ball dominant and involve teammates more when Phil Jackson and Tex Winter implemented the triangle offense:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B1VrTH32t1M&t=12s&pp=2AEMkAIB

YouTube

The Triangle Offense Explained - How It Helped Michael Jordan Lead The Bulls To Championships

Tex Winter describing how Michael Jordan was reluctant at first to have his role changed to involve his teammates more and become less ball dominant when he and Phil Jackson first tried to implement the triangle offense:

Show More...

Tex and Phil equated Jordan's high shot volume with selfish play and ball-dominance, so they thought the "no ball-dominance" aspect of the triangle would reduce Jordan's shots and scoring... They told everyone that Jordan wouldn't be scoring champ in the triangle - they were sure of this........ Jordan proceeded to lead the league in scoring for 7 of 7 seasons in the triangle, smh..

Accordingly, with all due respect to Tex Winters, he didn't have access to the stats, information and terminology that we have today, so he didn't know what the hell he was talking about.

Specifically, Tex had no clue what Jordan's "assisted rate" was because that concept and terminology didn't exist back then... So Tex didn't understand that Jordan's shots were highly-assisted and NOT ball-dominant, which means that Jordan could score while the ball moves and maintain his shot volume in the triangle... The term "assisted rate" simply wasn't in the ether back then, and this blind spot is why Tex and Phil were so wrong about Jordan not being scoring champ in the triangle... They didn't realize that they had the perfect highly-assisted scorer that the triangle requires... Otoh, the triangle is obsolete in 2024 due to a league full of low-assisted, ball-dominators.

MJ mastered the triangle and won with it almost immediately, which further demonstrates how his highly-assisted skillset was optimal and perfect for the triangle... Btw, you might claim that "surely Tex understood assisted rate", but the reality is that the terminology and stat didn't exist back then, and most fans or media TODAY don't understand it and equate high shot volume with ball-domination just like Phil and Tex did.
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Wade and AD are both on KD's level and Wade's top level is actually higher than KD's... Healthy Kyrie is also comparable - all these guys are "franchise players", aka elite producers that were asked to build lottery teams from scratch.

This contrasts with Klay and Pippen, who were secondary producers and insufficient to be franchise players..

Lebron is winless without top 15 all-time player, while Curry is 2 for 12, so Curry is superior based on your own logic.

And Lebron is only 4 for 14 when he has a franchise player like Wade, AD or Kyrie, while Curry is 2 for 3 when he had a franchise player (KD).

So Curry wins on every level - he won twice without a top 15 player, while Lebron never did, and he mostly won when he had franchise player teammate, while Lebron mostly lost with TWO franchise player teammates.

Furthermore, Curry proved that he could win with 1st-time all-stars like Klay, Wiggins and maybe Buddy, while Lebron couldn't win with all-stars like Mo, Zydrunas, Jamison and coveted acquisitions like Hughes - he needed franchise players at sidekick like Wade, Kyrie or AD, yet still mostly lost... Ultimately, Curry's skillset produces superior chemistry to win with less and produce the best teams, while Lebron's skillset produces bad chemistry and perennial losers with every cast.
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We're going past traditional labels itt, so sjnce Steph has the assisted rate (off-ball rate) of a shooting guard, he's more of a shooting guard (certainly a goat combo guard)

Accordingly, "high-scoring point guards" are defined as guys that score a lot of points UNASSISTED (dominating the ball and not assisted by teammates).. the only high-scoring point guards in history are Oscar, Lebron, Luka, Westbrook, Harden and SGA... And maybe Lillard and a couple others.

High-scoring point guards are only guys that have a high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles, which yields weak chemistry and underperforming teams.. Underperforming teams are defined as losing with the preseason favorite, homecourt advantage, or multiple all-star teammates, which Lebron has done 10 times.

^^^ Disregard this post - some typos

* Curry instantly had the GOAT team with just 1 franchise player teammate, while Lebron mostly lost with multiple franchise player teammates from 11' to 17',

* Curry won twice WITHOUT any franchise players as teammates, while Lebron never did and is 0 for 8.

* Wade reached a higher level than KD ever did, while AD's battle with Jokic also compares, and Kyrie has been historically-great as well - yet Lebron mostly lost with all these franchise players, while Curry instantly had the goat team with just 1 other franchise player.

This one is bolder than most ITT.

Give me your workings on why Wade > KD.

Here's KDs run before the Warriors (the only non-award seasons was a season he was injured)

Here's Wade's run before joining LeBron

Here's AD's

Actually a better comparison is Kobe vs Durant.

I probably pick Durant, but it's close. They're both in that 13-20 bracket for me.

You told us assisted fg% can only be found on nba.com. There are no assisted fg% numbers recorded for Michael Jordan prior to 1996-97. Therefore, there are no assisted fg% numbers for Michael Jordan prior to Tex Winter and Phil Jackson implementing the triangle offense for Chicago. Do you have another source for Michael Jordan’s assisted field goal% numbers prior to 1989-90 or are you lying right now?

Unfortunately, you’ve been caught in a lie again:

https://fadeawayworld.net/michael-jordan...

Doug Collins changed Michael Jordan’s role, moving him to point guard, because Sam Vincent was ineffective.

So when you said earlier that great players never have their role within an offense changed to better suit the team and circumstances, we can all agree you were wrong, yes?

Ok, so you agree that there are skill sets besides off ball jump shooting that increase title equity.

Would LeBron James being both one of the greatest scorers of all time (he has more points than anyone else in the history of the NBA) and one of the greatest playmakers of all time possibly increase a team’s title equity, if used in an appropriate offense? In other words, LeBron James could have, perhaps, increased his team’s title equity (winning 3 championships in 5 years, actually) even though he is not as skilled of an off ball jump shooter as Stephen Curry because of his numerous other elite skills?

This makes sense to me, imo, that other skills besides off ball jump shooting are necessary to win basketball games. I think anyone that has played organized basketball before would agree with that statement as well. And it looks like you agree too, fallguy. Case closed.

I agree. Should I lock the thread?

Hahaha. Up to you McLovin. I feel like we’ve achieved balance.

actual video of what happens when you lock a containment thread full of Super AIDS

Spoiler

Show

^^^ think about what you just posted above...

A few dozen guys that got their lunch money took every day in high school went off to college far away and reinvented themselves as journalism majors..

They eventually started covering NBA games and got to decide who is MVP, FMVP, All-NBA and All-Defense and project that every Shawn Bradley-like figure is the next goat.

So what you posted means literally nothing - it's the opinion of a few dozen journalism majors.. Accordingly, let's look at the actual substance and historical record of Wade and KD's performance.

Even though KD's rings were necessary to stop Lebron's team-hopping charade, they don't compare in domination to Wade's 2006 run, which was arguably the most dominant of all-time and far more dominant than anything Durant ever did... Specifically, similar to Lebron's Finals victories, Durant always had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, and always failed when he was forced to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load).. KD and Lebron's inability to defeat max defensive attention is an objective demonstration of their inferiority to Wade.. Of course Wade was the 1st option OVER peak Lebron in the 2011 Playoffs and Finals, which is another objective demonstration of his goat caliber when he was at his peak - he actually led the 2011 Heat over the Lebron's bully (the Celtics), so that's like Bird coming along and carrying Jordan over his nemesis the Pistons in 1991.

In addition to Wade's 2006 carry-job, the 2009, 2010 and 2011 seasons are as good as anything KD ever did and just a smidgen of help would've resulted in the Finals each year - Wade would have 2 FMVP when we include 2011, since he outplayed Dirk's goat performance but was saddled by Lebron's greatest choke of all-time.

When guys like KD and Lebron demonstrate over large samples that they cannot defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load on the championship level) or carry weak help over top teams (beat top 5 SRS teams with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick), there's a reason for these inabilities - they aren't just random occurrences.

Specifically, KD lacked the physical strength to defeat max defensive attention and frequently wears down or gets pushed around against the top level of defensive attention... Meanwhile, Lebron has the strength but lacks the expert jumpshooting skill to defeat max defensive attention - he lacks the brand of ball (the ball doesn't move) at carry-job volumes to beat top teams, so he needs all-time scoring help and cannot carry the scoring load against top teams or Finals teams... Otoh, unlike KD or Lebron, Kobe could defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load) because he was physically stronger than KD and had expert jumpshooting skill that Lebron lacked - Kobe could drop 40 while the ball moved, and therefore maintain sufficient brand at carry-job volume to beat top teams.

Since KD and Lebron couldn't carry the scoring load, they needed the most help ever - no one needed more help to win than KD or Lebron... So the reality is that Kobe is far superior to both because his ability to carry the scoring load allowed him to win with less and also have better teams... Meanwhile,Wade also defeated max defensive attention, so he was every bit as good as KD or Lebron and Wade would've been 1st option over Lebron from 2005-2011...

This a good point. What if fraudguy breaches containment and causes assisted fg% to go down all across 2+2 forums.