LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

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Complete Summary for the Layman (per FellaGaga edits)

By opting for teams with 3 franchise players, Lebron never learned the chemistry required to win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player like Curry, Jokic, and MJ did.. They learned elite chemistry and how to win, while he learned how to team-hop and talent-based winning (all-star team strategy)... So that's the fraud - a so-called goat candidate never learned how to win and develop chemistry, so he employs a talent-based approach and all-star team strategy.. The absence of a chemistry objective causes the players and media to blame all losses on needing more help/talent (talent-based winning).

Furthermore, Lebron descended into talent-based winning because his skillset can't produce great chemistry... Specifically, all high-scoring point guard styles have a high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles - this yields weak teammate development, chemistry and perennial losers with every cast.. The spot-up roles also lower teammate assists across the board, so the team cannot become a high assist team like the teams that beat Lebron (Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs, Magic).. The common thread in all of Lebron's playoff losses for the last 10 years is deficits in team assists.

It matters that high-scoring ball-dominators have a weak brand of ball and chemistry because it underachieves favored talent more than any other skillset.. Specific examples of underachieving favored rosters include Lebron having the most losses ever with the preseason favorite and in the Finals, while also having more losses with homecourt, all-star teammates and top seeds than Kobe, Curry or Jordan.. And more 4-0 sweeps/record losses as well.

In contrast to the perennial losers produced by Lebron's high volume of unassisted buckets (low-assisted ball-domination), jumpshooters or bigs have high assisted rates, so they produce great ball movement, chemistry and all the "dynasties" that mostly won over a material stretch of 5+ years (Russell, Kareem, MJ, Duncan, Curry, Kobe/Shaq).

Finally, unlike expert jumpshooters such as Curry or MJ, Lebron can't score 40 while the ball moves, so he lacks sufficient brand at carry-job volume to beat top teams and therefore needs all-time scoring help.. Specifically, he never carried weak help over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick), and he also needed equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so he never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals).. Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load requires more help, such as 3rd options that are better than Pau or Klay... So it's clear that Lebron's weaker brand and chemistry not only prevents great teams, but it prevents carrying the scoring load to win with less as well - these are clear cut reasons why Kobe, Curry and of course Jordan are better than Lebron (their skillsets produce better chemistry to produce better teams and win with less).

You're right - bad choice of words, among a few others... Edited summary reposted above.

If Curry wins this year, Lebron fans won't say that he passed Lebron because Lebron is still bigger and stronger - that's their goat case (garbage).

Otoh, Curry fans know that he's superior for substantive and basketball reasons - this includes a superior skillset that produces the best chemistry to win with less and produce the best teams.. Producing the best teams and winning with less provides greater long-run title equity than a skillset that cannot produce great chemistry or teams, and therefore needs more help to win...

So we don't even need to use our own acumen to determine who is better - we can just see who produced the best chemistry to win with less and have the best teams.. That's clearly the ball movement and highly-assisted skillsets of jumpshooters and bigs - they have all the dynasties that mostly won for a material stretch of 5+ years (Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Duncan, Curry, Kobe/Shaq), while the low-assisted skillset of high-scoring ball-domination has all the perennial losers that never produced great teams/dynasties (Luka, Lebron, Oscar Harden, SGA, Westbrook).

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Thread Cliffs

A player whose bad chemistry barely won 50 games with prime Kyrie/Love, and won 60 games once in 7 seasons with multiple all-star teammates (11-17'), and routinely underachieves favored talent by mostly losing with preseason favorites or Finals teams, and has the neediest and perennially-struggling teams ever despite stacked casts cannot be #2 all-time, or anywhere near.

The #2 player all-time would have at least 7 titles in Lebron's shoes and likely 8 or 9.. That's how much help Lebron had... With that being said, no one wants the truth anymore - they just want entertainment and are happy to be fed lies - so enjoy your fraud that mostly loses, regardless of cast, and has a skillset that yields the neediest and most underachieving teams ever.

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Thread Cliffs

A player who barely won 50 games with Kyrie/Love, and won 60 games once in 7 seasons with 2 all-star teammates (11-17'), and routinely underachieves favored talent by losing more than anyone ever has with preseason favorites or Finals teams, and has perennially-needy and struggling teams despite stacked casts cannot be #2 all-time, or anywhere near.

The #2 player all-time would have at least 7 titles in Lebron's shoes and likely 8 or 9.. That's how much help Lebron had... With that being said, no one wants the truth anymore - they just want entertainment and are happy to be fed lies - so enjoy your fraud that mostly loses, regardless of cast, and has a skillset that yields the neediest and most underachieving teams ever.

Nike stock is down 9.29% in the last month

Tesla stock is up 58.10% in the last month.

/thread

You guys were wrong about Lebron being GOAT or anywhere near - the story of his career is a weak chemistry skillset that struggles with sure things and produces underachieving teams, while getting carried to titles by equal-scoring partners and manufactured casts... This isn't anywhere near GOAT, so he's a fraud just like the "Ant is the next MJ" campaign, the Kamala campaign, or the tyson-paul fight - these frauds steal money from people... There's more fraud today than ever before and people should be aware of this and not lap up everything they see on TV.

Did you guys see Stephen A's video of him practicing basketball to show that he isn't a nerd?... This is the type of person that you guys get all your basketball knowledge from - let that sink in.. Otoh, everything I wrote itt is my own lived experience and knowledge of the game.. I'm the world's authority on this topic by virtue of spending more time than anyone in history at researching and discussing it.

/thread

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Here's what we know about Lebron's preferential treatment and the NBA manufacturing his career:

* Lebron was allowed the "AD heist", which was a historic and unprecedented move

* Lebron was allowed the "decision" to put the top 3 players in the East on 1 team

* Lebron was allowed to team up with Kyrie and Love to form another super-team

* The Lakers are the only team in the league that enjoyed roster overhauls for 6 straight years since 2019, and they're the only team where the media clamors for trades and improvements all year long - no other player in the league gets this treatment... These efforts are how Lebron escaped the bad fit with Westbrook.. Instead of opponents reveling in the bad fit and not helping Lebron, they were in on the scam and quickly saved Lebron.... Ultimately, every decent role player that you can think of has spent time in a Laker uniform in recent years to see if they "fit" with the unfittable (Lebron's game)

Lebron is the only player that the media allows to team-hop without criticism, and he's the only player that gets roster overhauls every year... He's also the only player that gets the league to look the other way regarding his team-ups and collusions.

Again, it's fraud and the saddest part is that a true goat would win the title every year with all the help Lebron had, or at least produce a great team/dynasty.... Curry had a 70-win team and changed the game with Klay, so why wouldn't Lebron produce a great team with all the help that he's been given?... Again, it's fraud because Lebron's skillset doesn't allow great chemistry or teams, so he's always thirsty for "more help" to save his losing brand of ball.

Jordan won 2 titles with a sidekick that had the worst efficiency that anyone ever had on a playoff run, and he won twice this way - he won twice with the biggest bricklayer and worst spacer of all-time.

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Quick Summary on Scottie Pippen for the Layman

Pippen was never a franchise player that was asked to build a team from scratch, and he was actually handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever in 94'... No one was surprised when the bubble burst quickly - the Bulls declined to 2nd Round and then borderline .500 in 95', so Pippen was reducing the franchise instead of growing it like a real franchise player does..

After cratering a 3-peat dynasty to borderline .500, Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs to get carried to another 3-peat.. This included the worst efficiency that anyone ever had in the playoffs for 2 of those runs (see chart in previous post), so MJ won with the worst spacer and biggest bricklayer of all-time.

The statistical record shows that Pippen never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade... Similar to many winning sidekicks like Klay, Ginobili, Parker, Dumars and Pau, Pippen didn't get All-NBA until he started winning titles, otherwise he would've been a regular 15-20 ppg scorer and not recognized on a normal team.. Furthermore, MJ would've won titles from 88-90' if Pippen wasn't such a low-producing rookie that needed tons of development (12 on 42% vs Pistons from 88-90', including historic debacles each year).

Fortunately for Pippen, MJ wasn't a high-scoring ball-dominator with a high volume of unassisted buckets that leaves teammates in spot-up roles and prevents young player development like Lebron's skillset does (zero teammate development in 21 years)... Instead, the fundamentally-sound Jordan was an expert jumpshooter that could dominate off-ball and play off teammates, which allowed young players like Pippen, Grant, Woolridge, BJ, Paxson, and Oakley to grow by leaps and bounds and produce an organic champion - MJ is the only player in history that grew single-digit rookies into champions, while everyone else was gifted ready-made stars or simply better players than the single-digit rookies that MJ had.

No I'm not - I'm using my excel spreadsheet, just like everyone else... We're all smarter than Phil and Tex by virtue of knowing that 3 > 2.

Accordingly, even dudes that never played know more than Phil by virtue of understanding the value of the 3-point shot, and accordingly to put shooters in the corners.

And notice the simplicity - it seems like Phil and Tex should've known such a simple concept like 3 > 2, or other simple things like assisted rate... Even though the terminology and stats didn't exist to explicitly show each player's assisted rate, they should've known that many of Jordan's buckets were assisted by teammates, so his shot volume and scoring wouldn't decrease in the triangle like they thought it would - they were certain that Jordan wouldn't be scoring champ in the triangle, but he proceeded to be scoring champ 7 of 7 times in the triangle.. They thought his high shot volume meant that he had the ball too much, when in reality he was frequently assisted by teammates and a great fit for the triangle.. Imagine MJ saying to himself "okay, I just have to use my turnaround a lot in that spot.... and in that spot I'll swing thru and do a 1-dribble

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F1Hy1IHfqM&t=4s

YouTube

Michael Jordan's Iconic Turnaround Jumper Started at UNC

People forget that Love was considered supremely dominant before joining Lebron - there was a lot of top 3 talk about Love at the time.

People forget that the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas got 3 years to develop a favored high seed before entering their first playoffs, while MJ was forced into the Playoffs in Year 1 with a lottery cast and no time to develop the team like Lebron got... This accounts for the difference in early playoff record between Lebron and MJ.. Once MJ had 3 healthy seasons, he had a 50-win team just like Lebron, except he had a team of single-digit rookies instead of veteran all-stars, 22/5/5 all-defender acquisitions and HOF coaches like Lebron's first playoff teams had.

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Lebron's help vs Curry's help:

11-13' WADE............ 25.2 PER... 0.211 WS/48... 6.1 BPM... 14.0 VORP.... 23.1 and 4.8 apg
17-19' DURANT........ 25.8 PER... 0.229 WS/48... 7.1 BPM... 16.4 VORP.... 25.8 and 5.1 apg

11-13' BOSH............. 19.5 PER... 0.173 WS/48... 1.2 BPM... 5.8 VORP..... 18/8/2
17-19' KLAY............... 16.7 PER... 0.106 WS/48... 0.1 BPM... 4.1 VORP..... 21/4/2


15-16' KYRIE............. 20.9 PER... 0.168 WS/48... 3.4 BPM... 6.0 VORP..... 21/3/5
15-16' KLAY............... 19.6 PER... 0.158 WS/48... 3.0 BPM... 6.5 VORP..... 22/4/2

15-16' LOVE............... 18.9 PER... 0.168 WS/48... 3.0 BPM... 6.0 VORP.... 16/10/2
15-16' DRAY............... 17.9 PER... 0.177 WS/48... 4.6 BPM... 8.7 VORP..... 12/9/7

^^^ It's statistical fact that Lebron equal or greater help than Curry, yet he produced perennial losers/underdogs and Curry produced goat teams/dynasties.

History shows that highly-assisted skillsets like jumpshooters or bigs produce the best chemistry and all the great teams/dynasties that mostly won for a material stretch of 5+ years (Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Duncan, Curry, Kobe/Shaq)... Meanwhile, the low-assisted skillsets produce weaker chemistry and perennial losers with every cast, so they're not capable of producing great teams (Lebron, Oscar, Luka, SGA, Harden, Westbrook)..

lol at those useless splits qualifiers.

I'll take Pippen's 50 TS% in 1998 (league average 52.4%) over Larry Hughes 45 TS% in 2007 (league average 54.1%).

Lebron received 4 players that were better than 1990 Pippen, but he couldn't develop them or win anything with them:

05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

The "bron-ball" skillset of ball-domination and imposing spot-up roles simply destroyed Hughes, Love, Bosh, Jamison, Kuzma, Ingram, Westbrook and many, many more.

MJ would obviously 3-peat with an all-star center, HOF coach and a coveted acquisition that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball:

05' HUGHES..... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5.. 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN....... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5.. No All-D

The "bron-ball" skillset and imposing spot-up roles simply destroyed Hughes, Love, Bosh, Jamison, Kuzma, Ingram, Westbrook and many, many more.

Lebron's teammates always play worse than Jordan's because Lebron's skillset of high-scoring ball-domination has a high volume of unassisted buckets (ball-domination) that leaves teammates standing around in spot-up roles.. Otoh, Jordan's buckets were often assisted by teammates (great off-ball game), which helped ball movement, chemistry and teammate performance.

Pippen shot below league average TS for every year of his playoff career except a few years when he had no burden in 89' and the Portland years - the only exception in 91' - that's the only time he shot league average in his prime.

And again, Lebron's teammates always play worse than Jordan's because Lebron's skillset of high-scoring ball-domination has a high volume of unassisted buckets (ball-domination) that leaves teammates standing around in spot-up roles.. Otoh, Jordan's buckets were often assisted by teammates (great off-ball game), which helped ball movement, chemistry and teammate performance.

Alright fallguy, that’s enough attention for one day. Time for bed.

By the way, the Triangle Offense sucks, kills creativity, and is slow and boring. There's a reason nobody has run it in 20 years, with the exception of the Knicks when Phil Jackson was in their front office.

This was said in 2012 by one of Bill Simmons' flunkies. Yeah, it was dominant... because the only people that ran it were ****ing MJ, Pippen, Kobe, Shaq... you could have those guys run the "tie your hands behind your back" offensive system and they'd still dominate.

^^^ Aging well.... 😆

^^^ Aging poorly...... 😮

Aging well.... 😆

^^^ See, the bolded above is the bullsh*t and the sophistry - Pippen does NOT belong on that list or in the same sentence as those guys.

Kobe's 5 chips in the triangle with zero playmaking help proved that Pippen's measly 5-6 assists weren't needed - the triangle moves the ball and generates assists on it's own, and MJ averaged more assists than Pippen or Kobe anyway.. The reality is that Pippen was mostly a dunker that wasn't even a great fit in the triangle by virtue of worst-ever efficiency, bricklaying and lane-clogging (see jmill's post above).

The only thing the triangle requires is the goat shooting guard and goat scorer (11 chips with MJ or Kobe) - it has zero rings without a perimeter player providing this caliber of both iso scoring and assisted scoring, thereby promoting the best ball movement, fits and offensive diversity.. It turns out that dumping the ball into Shaq doesn't promote great ball movement like having a perimeter player that can get 30 on quick jumpers and non-ball-dominant iso's - this goat scoring caliber is required for the triangle to win titles instead of being the most hated, restrictive, and unworkable offense ever.

Furthermore, a good team offense requires the best players to be good offensive players, but a good team defense doesn't require the best players to be good defenders.. There are many ways to skin a cat to get a good team defense, which is why Bird and Curry had #1 defenses are considered much better than Pippen despite being weak defenders.. This is also why individual defense isn't that important when comparing 2 great players... And despite Pippen's presence, Jordan still had less defensive help than his peers by virtue of zero rim protection in a big man league, and lower defensive ranking than every ECF and Finals opponent during the 1st three-peat (except the Suns - the Suns were 9th on defense and the Bulls' 7th).. In addition to the superior defenses of ECF and Finals opponents, the 92' Knicks took the Bulls 7 games in the 2nd Round and they also had a better defense (#2 in the league).

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Nick Wright and many fans have finally come around to my point of view - it only took 10 years for people to get bored of threes:

Nick Wright (paraphrased):

My issue with the NBA's style of play started with my own lack of excitement... As opening night approached this year, I was like "Meh"... I wasn't that excited, which surprised me... For my entire life, the NBA was my clear #1 and fans associated me with it, so it was a problem that I wasn't enthusiastic to start this season... The other thing was that fans assumed that I simply didn't like the Celtics and were mad that they won with their 3-point approach - but that wasn't it - I didn't care about the Celtics... The issue was something that I told Daryl Morey 6 years ago - since 3 > 2, it's correct to take 100 threes per game and the game will eventually trend this way, which isn't good for the game or fans.. It isn't good that Anthony Edwards shoots 13 threes per game and doesn't display his athleticism as much as he could - it isn't as entertaining a product as it could be."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6iOER6czN0&t=41s

YouTube

Nick Wright: Why The NBA Needs To Drastically Change Their Rules!

In the 90's, it was correct to play extra physical to win, but that wasn't always good TV, so the NBA changed the rules....... And that's what they need to do now - three-pointers win games, but it isn't good TV, so the NBA should change the rules again like they did before.. Reducing the easy penetration would reduce the drive-and-kick, which is the primary method of generating threes.. That's the solution - bring back hand-checking... You could also cap threes at 25 per game, which would be interesting but perhaps too big of a change to the rules.

An interesting post. You just argued that the drive-and-kick, one of LeBron's best abilities, is the best way to generate threes and "three-pointers win games". This is in contradiction to your last several hundred posts which argued that it was bad LeBron did this because it "reduced" players to spot up shooters. But now you are saying it generates efficient assists, and 3>2 (congrats on the correct math here, fallguy), so these are good plays.

Furthermore, since 3>2 and LeBron is statistically more efficient than Kobe Bryant at 3-pointers, and is a better all around player on top of that, you've just proven that LeBron is the superior player to Kobe and you've falsified your entire previous argument. Good job fallguy.

I hope this post doesn't cause you to have an emotional meltdown like you had last week. You seemed a bit unstable there and I was worried about you. Honestly just trying to help you out here chief. Hope you're taking notes.

Lebron's game doesn't facilitate drive-and-kick as much as Curry or MJ because great drive-and-kick requires great assist targets, which Lebron isn't.. Drive-and-kick generates great ball movement if everyone is a kickout option and assist target... But if 1 guy is scoring high amounts and 30 points unassisted, then this kills elite ball movement and team assists, and makes everyone stand around..

The results tell the story because Lebron's high volume of unassisted buckets (ball-domination) doesn't win like his peers' skillsets - he has the lowest winning frequency of any top 10 candidate and lost more with favored rosters than anyone in history (preseason favorites & Finals teams), while also having the neediest teams in history and perennial losers with every cast (can't produce great teams/dynasties that mostly win over a material stretch).

Furthermore, if the 30 ppg of unassisted buckets is from the starting point guard, then this will kill elite ball movement but not as much as if he was a frontcourt player - ball dominance from a frontcourt player is abnormal, which reduces the capacity for ball movement and assists more than other teams that have normal assisted rates in the frontcourt..

And the fact that Kobe and Lebron's 3-point percentages are similar means nothing compared to Lebron's jumpshooting skill being elementary compared to Kobe - Kobe could score 40 on assisted shots, ball movement and great chemistry, while Lebron's ball domination produced perennial losers and the neediest teams of all-time..... Lebron simply lacks the footwork and touch to score quickly upon the catch like Kobe, Dirk or MJ, so he can't facilitate great ball movement, chemistry and teams.... The results speak for themselves - Lebron produced perennial losers with every cast and needs more help than Kobe, who produced dynasties and won with less (a sidekick than was worse than Bosh or Love).

Here's a more succinct quote and video from Nick:

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/UCRa8xH-LnA

YouTube

“The league needs to change the rules…You are playing a dangerous, dangerous game.” #nba #celtics

So after 10 years, people finally catch up to where I was at... I was called crazy for saying the game had too many threes, spacing and beginner format rules (no physicality, hand checking, and open paint/defensive 3)..

The mainstream media and fans FINALLY catch up, smh.. People simply aren't watching or excited anymore because of the 3-point contest format and the reality that players don't give a **** about competition anymore.

As explained to you before, LeBron James's assisted rate is 38.4% for his career. Kobe Bryant's was 40.6%. This weird narrative you have that all of LeBron's points were unassisted is entirely fabricated, which is part of the reason your arguments make absolutely no sense.

On top of that, you are still somehow struggling to understand that assists, and therefore drive-and-kick, require both a facilitator and a target. That's literally how assists work. LeBron was not always the assist target, he was often the assist facilitator when he played point forward. He did both. This is a good thing. It adds to player versatility on offense. LeBron not being an assist target does not mean he wasn't contributing by creating the assist. But on top of that he has scored the most points in NBA history at an assisted rate of 38.4%.

I showed conclusively with data across every single season LeBron played in that when he joined a team their assist rate went up, and when he left a team, their assist rate went down, which proves that he facilitated ball movement despite not even getting the opportunity to play in an offense like the triangle (like Kobe and MJ).

You said two posts ago that three pointers win games and drive-and-kick was the definitive way to generate 3 pointers. Are you now claiming that when LeBron James does this it's actually bad? So (again, like your other arguments) it's both good and bad, depending on the player and what argument you're trying to invent? Keep falling fallguy.