LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

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PROVEN BASKETBALL THEOREM

The best basketball (dynasties) = great ball movement

High scoring, low-assisted players = cannot produce great ball movement


CONCLUSION: among high scorers, the best low-assisted players < the best high-assisted players, since low-assisted players cannot produce the best basketball (dynasties)

We know that low-assisted scorers like Luka or Lebron cannot produce great ball movement like the Spurs and Warriors because they never have, and their teams have much lower average assist ranking over the long-term than dynasties.. There's also the mathematical reality of their high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles and lowers their assists, thereby preventing a high assist team.

Sorry you need to stop using the Spurs in your posts based on information you provided previously.

They were 11th over the course of Duncan's career, which is much better than ball-dominators, and they were also 1st in 13' and 14', which laid the foundation for the Warriors... So they had a reputation for historic ball movement, higher assist rankings over the long term than ball-dominators, and #1 assist capability.. These things are required for the best basketball (dynasties).

First of all, an equal-opportunity system gives everyone equal opportunity to score AND assist... The main issue with Lebron's game is the high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles, which reduces their assists and prevents a high-assist team.

Secondly, the bolded is wrong.. A ball movement system that gives everyone equal opportunity to score would NOT increase everyone's assisted rate, since an increase in assisted rate (spot-ups) decreases their time with the ball... Accordingly, a ball movement system that gave everyone equal opportunity would increase some players' assisted rate and decrease others.

So everything about your question is wrong and a fundamental misunderstanding of things

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^^^ This lineup cannot run a ball movement system because of the presence of a high-scorer with a low-assisted rate (ball-dominator), which means many unassisted buckets that literally kills ball movement - the high volume of unassisted buckets make teammates stand around in spot-up roles, which lowers their assists and prevents a high-assist team.

Ultimately, the biggest thing that makes this lineup not conducive for ball movement is Lebron's high volume of unassisted buckets (ball-dominant skillset).

If we switch Curry to Lebron, then this team cannot run a ball movement system because of Lebron's high-volume of unassisted buckets that lower teammates' assists and prevents a high-assist team..

How would the Warriors maintain their goat assist ranking if Lebron lowers Durant and Draymond's assists like he does every other starter that he ever played with?? (stats here).

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COMPARING THE EASTERN RUNS OF 01' IVERSON, 07' LEBRON AND 89' JORDAN

BURDEN

COMP

CAST

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n50O5nJ6...
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I assume you are congratulating Jordan for being so poor during the regular season his team had to face better teams in the playoffs because they finished with a worse seed.

Weird brag.

11th isn't great for a good team in any stat. You do realise that yeah?

You realise winning 1 championship out of 7 years isn't great, yeah?

Facts are, when the Spurs were a dominate team they were a low assist team.

It's okay.

It's just proving everything you think is wrong.

FG - All great dynasties are high assist teams.

Well except the Spurs...

Oh, and the Celtics...

Oh, and the Pistons when they won 2 chips, 1 other finals appearance and two other Conference Finals in a 5 year span... checks notes... were constantly finishing in the bottom half of the league in total assists.

SGA has an assisted rate of 27%
Tatum has an assisted rate of 38%

Checks notes. Two teams favourite to win the Championship.

Nope, we clearly established that as a point forward, LeBron’s assisted rate is normal. Not that it matters because assisted rate is minimally correlated with wins, or even negatively correlated in some seasons. As fidstar and I have conclusively proven with data but you are incapable of understanding because you have a fundamental inability to understand even the most basic statistical concepts. His assisted rate is within a couple % of Kobe Bryant, a shooting guard.

I didn’t say it would increase everyone’s assisted rate. I said it would increase assist rate. For the team. Obviously. Can you read?

Player A holds the ball, dribbles, and shoots. Scores a field goal.

Players A, B, C, D, and E play in a high ball movement motion offense. Pass the ball multiple times within this offensive system until someone gets an efficient scoring opportunity. One of the players receives a pass and scores.

Which system gives more assists fallguy?

Wrong. An unsurprising statement, however, coming from the person with the poorest understanding of team basketball that I’ve ever seen.

Wrong. We’ve established that LeBron’s assisted rate is normal or even high for a point forward (not that it matters, because again, assisted fg% is minimally correlated, or even negatively correlated at times, with wins. This is statistical fact.)

One, I did not ask you to switch any players. I asked you to reply 1 or 2 and you failed. You lose points.

Two, you would not replace Steph, a 6’2” guard that is probably the greatest off-ball jump shooter of all time, with LeBron, a 6’8” hybrid point forward. The fact that you think this is good roster construction proves you don’t know anything about team basketball. You’d replace Durant or Dray with LeBron to maintain similar team structure.

Three, you fail again to understand that a great player like LeBron would easily integrate into a hybrid motion offense like the Warriors. This is how he won 3 rings in 5 years with different teams (Miami and Cleveland). Because he is extremely versatile and can easily adapt to probably any system. The fact that he has won with three different teams and systems proves this. Jordan and Kobe were only capable of winning in one system.

Your last statement is a complete misunderstanding of basketball and mathematics: every time LeBron has joined a new team their team assist rate has went up. Every time LeBron has left a team their team assist rate has gone down.

Proof here
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...

If you’re still trying to understand why a high assist playmaker being on the court reduces the average assists of the other four players (while increasing the overall team assists; which you claimed was the new “most important” stat for winning basketball. But I’m sure you will back out of that now because you are a dishonest weasel troll that craves Internet forum attention for some weird reason) then I cannot help you.

Since this contradicts fallguy’s narrative, I believe that means these teams don’t count. In fact, he will probably say it means these teams were bad.

This is, unfortunately, because he is a complete ****ing lunatic.

I think I'll keep this thread open so it stays on the front page for all to gander at the village idiot.

Disclaimer: I'm not calling anyone a village idiot, it's just a common old school saying.

What year Jordan played poorly in regular season but get crushed in the playoffs ?

I think you may be missing the point.

One of the primary claims is that LeBron James would be incapable of adapting his game to a high ball-movement offense therefore he cannot be the GOAT. He lacks the versatility to adapt because he is a 6’8” hybrid point forward who has the most points scored of all time, 4th all time in assists, and is a better 3 point shooter than both Kobe and Jordan. But he isn’t versatile and could not adapt. Anyway, for some reason (and not due to the person arguing this being a nut job), a team of elite offensive players would not be able to play well with LeBron. So let’s apply this logic, giving the person the benefit of the doubt and assuming he or she is not a nut job.

Michael Jordan won titles with the Chicago Bulls. One team. One coach and one offensive system (triangle). And needed Scottie Pippen for every single one.

Kobe Bryant won titles with the LA Lakers. One team. One coach and one offensive system (triangle). And needed Shaq or Pau Gasol for every single one.

LeBron James won titles with the Miami Heat, Cleveland Cavaliers, and LA Lakers. Three different coaches and three different offensive systems. Adapting his game to different teammates, different offensive schemes, and his role within that scheme. He has played front court, back court, hybrid forward, point forward, on-ball, off-ball, you name it. He’s won in every scenario in every conceivable circumstance. While Jordan and Kobe have won in precisely one.

Conclusion: LeBron James isn’t skilled enough to adapt to other offensive schemes. Crap…. Yeah I guess the person arguing this is actually a nut job. Sorry, I tried.

When he was on the Heat, Spoelstra often had him playing positions 1 through 5 throughout a single game.

Such amazing versatility.. he was like a combination of a chess queen and knight -- all rolled into one.

At this point we are poking zombie fallguy to see what comes out for our amusement. Kind of like a circus monkey doing tricks. The thread has been solved but fallguy has some type of weird compulsion to embarrass himself. Any attention is good attention for someone like that, I suppose.

King of Queens!

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A team cannot mostly lose and be a dynasty.. They must mostly win for a material stretch of time.

But what's the right time frame???... 4 years isn't the right time period because it's an even number that doesn't allow the chance to "mostly win" and therefore prove dominance.

3 years is too common, so teams get lucky like Magic and Kareem missing the 89' Finals, or the "migraine" - this gave the Pistons 2 titles... Meanwhile, the "Allen miracle" and a lucky draw against babies was sandwiched between the goat choke and record loss of 11 and 14'..

These simply aren't "dynasties".

Accordingly, 5 years is the appropriate term, and the only teams that mostly won over a 5-year period are Russell's Celtics, Kareem's Lakers, Jordan's Bulls, Duncan's Spurs, Curry's Warriors and Shaq/Kobe's Lakers - all of these guys are highly-assisted players that allow high-assist teams.

The Pistons weren't a dynasty and the average assist rank of the 60's Celtics would be top 10 today - they ranked 3.5 out of 9 to 14 teams, which was top third of the league, or top 10 today.. Their top 10 average plus multiple #1 rankings and reputation for historic ball movement is similar to other dynasties - it represents a level of ball movement that ball-dominators never reach.

So you wrong about the Pistons (not a dynasty) and Celtics (dynasty ball movement)..

Your Pistons and Celtics examples were wrong, and now your Spurs example isn't even the exception that proves the rule because you forgot the argument.

The argument was always that every dynasty is led by a highly-assisted 1st option that allows high assist teams,

Dynasties don't always win with high assists, but they always have the extra versatility and capability to play that way by having a highly-assisted 1st option that allows top assist capability - this is demonstrated by top team assist ranking at some point in their career and solid average ranking over the course of their career.. Otoh, the many unassisted buckets of low-assisted scorers prevents high-assist teams - this kind of player that doesn't allow the best brand and high assists has never been 1st option on a dynasty.

Data for assisted % of field goals made began being recorded in 1996-97. There is zero data about “highly-assisted 1st options” before 1996-97. Any claim about players or teams with a highly assisted first option before 1996-97 is a lie.

There have been three teams since 1996-97 that would qualify for your definition of a “mostly winning” dynasty with 3 championships in a 5 year window. The 2000-02 Lakers. The 2003–07 Spurs. And the 2015-18 Warriors.

LeBron James, by himself, also qualifies for this by winning 3 championships from 2012 to 2016, factually proving his versatility by doing it under multiple teams, coaches, offensive schemes, and rosters. But I believe you said that doesn’t count.

Anyway, the three dynasties (minus the LeBron individual dynasty across multiple franchises) are:

1) The 2000-02 LA Lakers
Led by Shaquille O’Neal, Kobe Bryant, and multiple elite role players. A GOAT-tier coach in Phil Jackson and a high ball movement offense (the triangle).

2) The 2003-07 San Antonio Spurs
Led by Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, and multiple elite role players. A GOAT-tier coach in Gregg Popovich and a high ball movement motion offense.

3) The 2015-18 Golden State Warriors
Led by Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson, Kevin Durant, and multiple elite role players. A GOAT-tier coach in Kerr and a high ball movement, triangle inspired, hybrid motion offense.

Exactly three dynasties according to your “mostly winning” criteria of 3 championships in 5 years (minus LeBron James, since you said he does not count) since assisted field goal % began being tracked.

Do you notice any commonalities among those three dynasties? Can you describe, in your own words, what those are? You can say assisted field goal %, the statistic that is negatively correlated with wins, if you want to, but I’m wondering if you notice anything else as well. Any other patterns, perhaps.

grrrrr... lmao..... We can deduce that Kareem and Russell were highly-assisted players because every frontcourt player from 1997 to the present is, except Lebron - and it's elementary bball 101 that frontcourt players are highly-assisted players that often barely dribble.. It's literally foolish to think that Russell and Kareem weren't highly-assisted players..

Imagine passing the ball to a big man and they just "toss" it in - Kareem's sky hook was the easiest assist that anyone could get and he dropped nearly 40k in this highly-assisted fashion, while Lebron dropped 40k in a low-assisted fashion (dominating the ball), which produced opposite results (perennial losers instead of dynasties).

^^ every dynasty that you listed was led by highly-assisted players/skillsets, since low-assisted skillsets prevent high-assist teams that dynasties are known for, such as seasons with top assist rankings and a good ranking average over the long-term.

And of course that's 5 of 5 dynasties that are led by highly-assisted skillsets/players when we appropriately include Kareem and Russell, who were obviously highly-assisted like all frontcourt players are (not named Lebron James).

0 for 7 with 04-10' Cavs
1 for 4 with 15-18' Cavs
1 for 4 with 20-23' Lakers
1 for 4 with 11-14' Heat*

Lebron went 1 for 4 with Love, AD and Wade (except the Allen miracle), so he produced perennial losers with every team just like all low-assisted 1st options do (ball-dominators) - their high volume of unassisted buckets leaves everyone standing around in spot-up roles, which lowers teammates' assists and prevents the high-assist teams.. Since low-assisted 1st options like Lebron and Luka don't allow high team assists that every dynasty has, they're inferior to high-assisted skillsets that do.

The commonality is that all 5 dynasties in history were led by highly-assisted 1st options, since low-assisted 1st options prevent high team assists and great ball movement capability that all dynasties have.

You could also say that another commonality is that every dynasty lacked a low-assisted 1st option (ball-dominator), since that kills the ball movement that dynasties are known for.
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Lebron has the longest list of bad fits in history, which proves that he doesn't play 5 positions, even without knowing that his low-assisted rates are only achieved with live-dribbling (point guard skills).

The low-assisted rates back up the eye test that Lebron is mainly a ball-dominator, and a high-scoring one - his high volume of unassisted buckets imposes spot-up roles that lower everyone's assists and prevents higher team-assist capability that characterizes all dynasties.

The only player-type that can handle the forced-change to a higher level of spot-ups are guys that were already elite shooters like Korver, Mo or Kyrie.. Otherwise, every other type of player didn't fit with Lebron, which proves that he doesn't play 5 positions and is actually quite 1-dimensional.. Lebron's weak chemistry is why his teams are the neediest in history and the story for 22 years is needing more help and mostly, regardless of cast.

You guys need to stop lying to yourselves and regurgitating nonsense that you heard on TV from journalism majors with profit incentive - it holds no water without actual proof and backup like what I provide for my claims...

Everyone knows that every coach runs the same offensive scheme where Lebron needs a lot of shooters around him for his "down-hill" skillset, smh... It's a laughable display of unassisted buckets, which imposes spot-up roles and lowers everyone's assists, thus preventing a high-assist team and dynasty capability - rinse repeat.. smh..

He literally got Blatt and Luke Walton fired when they wanted to install a ball movement system, and he tried to do the same with Spolestra - this is well-documented.. The ball must be in Lebron's hands and a career of unassisted buckets and low-assisted rate that lowers everyone's assists proves the case pretty convincingly.

We know that Lebron cannot play in a ball movement system because ball movement systems don't have low-assisted 1st options, aka "primary ballhandlers", and 22 years confirmed that coaches cannot implement offenses without Lebron being a "primary ball-handler" (exactly what ball movement systems don't have).

Every ball movement system is led by highly-assisted skillsets, while a low-assisted skillset like Lebron or Luka cannot lead a ball movement system due to their high volume of unassisted buckets that imposes spot-up roles upon everyone - this lowers teammates' assists, thus preventing a high-assist team and exactly what you're claiming he can do (ball movement).

You can put any fancy name that you want on it, but he's just a point guard skillset that happens to start in the frontcourt, so teammates now see a high volume of unassisted buckets in a spot that used to be a big assist target... This dynamic prevents extra capability of high assist teams..

It's simple math that you guys were wrong about or lacked the insight to see yourselves, so now you're scrambling around to avoid accepting the reality of your inferior hoops understanding.. It's quite amusing..

Jordan's career percentage is weighed down by mostly have years of only 1 attempt per game of "bailout volume" , or highly-contested bailout shots at the end of shot clock.

Otherwise, Jordan shot better than Lebron at today's volumes 3+ attempts in regular season or playoff series... Jordan never had any seasons or series of him shooting poorly at 3+ attempts (smart player), while lebron has many bricklaying seasons and series at today's volumes (dumb player).

You can put any fancy name that you want on it, but he's just a point guard skillset that happens to start in the frontcourt, so teammates now see a high volume of unassisted buckets in a spot that used to be a big assist target, which makes their assists decline...

This dynamic of lowering teammates' assists prevents the extra capability of high assist teams and therefore dynasties..

It's correlated with the best basketball (dynasties), which means that not every team with capability for high assists will be a dynasty, but every dynasty will have capability for high assists.. This includes seasons with top assist rankings and higher average ranking over the long term.

Hope this helps your understanding.

Actually, it's you guys that can't understand basic things.... Not every team with capability for high assists will be a dynasty, but every dynasty will have capability for high assists, such as seasons with top assist rankings and higher average ranking over the long term.

Again, team assists are correlated with dynasties, so not every team with high assist capability will be a dynasty, but every dynasty will have capability for high assists.. This includes examples of top ranked seasons and higher average ranking over the long-run.

Ball movement systems don't have any players with assisted rates of under 40%, so Lebron cannot play in a ball movement system.

Ball movement offenses simply don't allow players with high volume of unassisted buckets, since it leaves everyone standing around.. this is bball 101

It's common knowledge that every coach runs the same offensive scheme where Lebron needs a lot of shooters around him for his "down-hill" skillset, smh... It's a laughable display of unassisted buckets, which imposes spot-up roles and lowers everyone's assists, thus preventing a high-assist team and dynasty capability - rinse repeat.. smh..

He literally got Blatt and Luke Walton fired when they wanted to install a ball movement system, and he tried to do the same with Spolestra - this is well-documented.. The ball must be in Lebron's hands and a career of unassisted buckets and low-assisted rate that lowers everyone's assists proves the case pretty convincingly.

But the easiest way to see that Lebron can't switch styles is that he has the most bad fits in history - this proves that he doesn't play 5 positions, even without knowing that his low-assisted rates are only achieved with live-dribbling (point guard skills).. So you're wrong on every level - he got coaches fired for trying to run ball movement and has the most bad fits ever, while also having high volume of unassisted buckets that leaves everyone standing around and prevents ball movement.

Lebron's own assists merely offset the reduction that he causes teammates', and the reduction of teammates' assists prevents the capability of high-assist teams and therefore dynasties.
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