LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

If NBA viewership is way down, there could be many possible reasons. Simply blaming LeBron is ridiculous. You could just as easily say the viewership is down because LeBron isn't the superstar that he was and can no longer carry the league like he once did. Jokic, Giannis, Tatum, Luka, etc therefore would be the actual problem.

Or maybe it's just that the world has changed. Is viewership struggling in other major sports? That would be LeBron's fault too somehow I guess. MLB viewership has dropped off in a big way. Is that LeBron's fault too? NHL has trended down. Tennis viewership has dropped off massively. So has PGA viewership. Only the NFL is not losing ground. So this makes your theory and your ridiculous confidence in it look pretty dumb.

I just googled 'why NBA viewership is down' and I see many theories pop up, none of which are 'Lebron-fatigue' or even LeBron related at all.

But of course we can all spot and predict this biased opinion from 5000 miles away well in advance.

It's obviously LeBron's fault. Just like the any war going on at the moment.

It's also why FG hasn't been laid in 12 years*.

This is because LeBron is a much, much better playmaker than Michael Jordan. He had a peak assists per game in a championship winning year of 10.2. Michael Jordan’s peaked at 6.1 in a championship winning year. A staggering difference of 67.2%.

This proves that LeBron James was light years better than MJ at incorporating teammates in a high ball movement offense. The key to winning basketball and dominant dynasties.

This is why LeBron James was able build a mostly winning dynasty across multiple teams from 2012 to 2016 (3 rings in 5 years) — he has a vastly superior skill set for facilitating elite ball movement.

This is also why Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant required Phil Jackson, the triangle, and other elite players such as Pippen and Shaq to rescue their careers — without Phil and his system, they were not able to organically build the ball movement necessary for a mostly winning, dominant team. They both, together, had zero championships without Phil Jackson and the triangle (proven losers without Phil Jackson’s help). LeBron James was able to do this by himself, without Phil Jackson and without the triangle, because of his intrinsically winning, organic skill set.

Wade, Kyrie, AD, Bosh, and Love were elite-producing "franchise players" that were asked to build a lottery team from scratch, so they were far better scorers and shooters than a secondary producer like Pippen... Jordan had 0 franchise player teammates and the weakest-scoring teammates ever (least scoring help ever) - this is a mathematical and statistical fact that is demonstrated many ways.

Lebron averages far less assists than similar ball-dominators like Magic, Oscar, Luka, Kidd, Stockton, CP3, Isiah, Trae Young, Wall, KJ and others, while only averaging only 1 or 2 more assists than off-ball guys like Bird or MJ, so we can conclude that Lebron is an inferior playmaker relative to other all-timers that are all-round players.

This is all intuitive, since Lebron's APG has always been low for such a frequent ball-dominator, i.e. other ball-dominators have higher APG, while guys that aren't ball-dominators have almost as much... Infact, we can correlate a player's low-assisted rate with high APG, but Lebron's APG isn't that great for a low-assisted player (ball-dominator).

Pre-Curry & Spacing Era (pre-2015)

Playoffs

06-14' LEBRON''....... 28/8/6
85-93' JORDAN......... 34/7/7

Thru 9 years of their playoff careers and thru half their rings, Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron.

Lebron didn't start averaging more assists than Jordan until 2015 when everyone's assists and production increased at the beginning of Curry's spacing era - the entire league saw yearly increases in production from that point forward.

Obviously, given Lebron's status as a low-assisted ball-dominator, it's pretty pathetic that Jordan out-assisted him for their entire playoff career before the Curry era began...

There are many factors that show Lebron is a vastly overrated playmaker such as his relatively-weak APG compared to other low-assisted players/ball-dominators, while barely having a higher assist average than off-ball players.. And the factor that shows his overrated playmaking more than anything is the cratering of his teammates' PPG and APG - his low-assisted style imposes spot-up roles and a low level of production entirely from teammates... This weak brand of ball is why Lebron never had a #1 offense or high-assist team, while having a coaching carousel for 22 years (uncoachable)...

So he's actually a bad playmaker that puts up numbers due to the green light, but the results are trash... He mostly loses with every cast or franchise, including super-teams, multiple all-star teammates, preseason favorites, or Finals teams - he mostly loses in all of these scenarios... This is just a tiny slice of the ways to show that his frontcourt ball-dominance (abnormally-low assisted rate & assist target in the frontcourt) is the most-losing and underachieving brand of all-time.

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Goat requirements

* produce the best basketball, aka dynasties and dominant champions

* have little or no losses with favorite status, homecourt, all-star teammates, top seeds, or Finals teams

* have GOAT production rates, aka "dominance", such as #1 in either PPG, RPG, APG, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, plus/minus, raptor, or another major stat

* a strong record of teammate elevation & young player development - teammates grow statistically and play near capacity/career highs

* no weaknesses - nothing is a liability (i.e. FT's, turnovers, assisted rate/off-ball, ball movement/team assists, jumpshooting efficiency, clutch, etc)

* proven track record of the best brand of ball, such as consistently-great teammate fits/ chemistry, #1 offenses and anything else that confirms the best brand of ball

He literally never did because ball-dominators or low-assisted players have never been the 1st option on a dynasty or dominant champion.

Since 1997 and the inception of possession-tracking, 8 of 8 champions that averaged 1 loss or less per round (dominant champions) had highly-assisted 1st options with assisted rates of 40% or higher and career assisted rates of approximately 50% to 60%... This includes Durant, Shaq, Duncan, Jokic, Tatum and Jordan..,., Meanwhile, 4 of 4 dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options as well, such as Jordan, Duncan, Shaq and Curry.

This means that low-assisted players like Lebron, Luka, Harden, and others are 0 for 12 in producing dynasties or dominant champions, and this is just since 1997!!!... If we had assisted rates going back to 1960, then we would see all the other dynasties and dominant champions weren't led by low-assisted 1st options either - all of these teams were outlined earlier itt.

Nonetheless, 0 for 12 is still overwhelming data that confirms ball-dominators are a lower skillset entirely that cannot produce the best basketball.. The issue is that low-assisted 1st options have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement, while highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has.

Lebron is the linchpin because viewership is down 50% since he started winning in 2012 - that's when the decline started... And this season, NBA games on ESPN/TNT/ABC/NBA TV get 1.4 million viewers compared to 1.2 for the WNBA.... 😮.. (source here).

People don't like to be lied to.. They don't like being told that getting swept in the WCF or 1st Round with the best teammate in the league ADDS to a forced goat debate - people always wake up to this kind of media fraud.. People are like "but wait.. AD is much better than Pippen, so why isn't Lebron winning every year?".. Ditto Wade... People aren't idiots

Ultimately, people don't like the lesser environment of competition that Lebron ushered in with his teaming up, which made it easier to do things like load-manage, or simply not play that competitively against your fellow millionaire-peers... Silver's easy-scoring format and the 3-point contest further worsens the competitive environment, but it all starts with Lebron's "decision" to not compete - this spearheaded the easier and less serious environment that we have now, and that's when people started to stop watching (starting with me - I guess I was the first one that stopped watching).

This is an excellent post as always. It explains why the Bulls were able to be so successful even when MJ retired. They were so talented they didn't need him to be a really good team. Swapping him out for Drexler is a reality. Though Drexler probably doesn't sit out two years because he's weak minded and lazy.

Meanwhile none of LeBron's teammates had any success without him (outside Wade). He had to carry them. He also carried the coaching staff who have zero rings outside LeBron (meanwhile MJ's coach went on to win 5 more rings).

So I just want to make sure I got this right. LeBron had nothing to do with the big increase when he went to Miami, but he was the reason that it just dropped back to what it was before he went to Miami?

Super-teams and the increasingly weaker competitiveness/caring of players gradually lost all the fans that were initially attracted to the idea of super-teams in 2011.. It only took a few years to lose those fans and more that sought real competition from other sports like MMA, soccer, or any other sport that grew during this time (Lebron's prime) that the NBA cratered.

The APG argument was horrible because Matt said Lebron had a "ceiling" of 10.2 APG in a cherry-picked regular season, but Jordan averaged 11.2 in the 91' Finals, which is better than Lebron's best on the championship/highest level..

In addition to having lower ceiling in the Finals than Jordan, or lower APG in the main part of their playoff careers (pre-2015 Curry era), or sub-par APG for a low-assisted player (ball-dominator) and barely more than the best off-ball players, Lebron's own scoring is largely unassisted (low-assisted rate), so he cannot be the 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions)... They required highly-assisted 1st options 12 of 12 times.

We also know that low assisted 1st options rate have a high volume of unassisted buckets that reduces teammates' assists and prevents a high-assist team.. Lower APG for teammates represents the spot-up roles that Lebron imposes, which causes zero young player development, weak chemistry/fits and perennially losing teams that underachieve favored rosters more than anyone ever (most losses with preseason favorite & Finals teams, and bevies of losses with homecourt, all-star teammates and top seeds).

So any notion that Lebron has all-time IQ is erased by the aforementioned factors of weak APG for a low-assisted player (ball-dominator), and

Finally, the best players on a team must be good scorers, but they don't have to be top defenders, rebounders or passers for the team to be elite in those categories.. That's why the only things that matter when comparing 1st options from different positions is PPG and how those PPG are scored (assisted rate)..

Swapping out Jordan for Kobe and peak Shaq produced half of MJ's success, so Drexler would produce zero.

How many times are you going to get caught lying?

Kyrie, Wade and Love made the Finals without Lebron, while Pippen never did.

In addition to never making the Finals like Lebron's sidekicks did, Pippen never outplayed MVP's like Kyrie did vs Curry, or AD vs Jokic, or Wade vs Dirk.... Pippen was never expected to compete with Barkley, Malone, Shaq, etc, let alone OUTPLAY them like Lebron's sidekicks did.

Tbh, no one in history had sidekicks outplay current MVP's like Kyrie did, and no one in history had 6 straight preseason favorites (11-16')... These unprecedented advantages required another unprecedented advantage to stop it (KD's Warriors).

Lebron literally had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so he never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level), while also never carrying weak help over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick).

Lebron can't carry teams against top opponents because he's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, and therefore needs all-time scoring help (franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option)... Otoh, jumpshoorers like Curry or MJ can drop 40 while the ball moves, so they can effectively carry the scoring load against top teams and win with weak scoring help like Klay or Pippen..

The 94' Bulls fell from 3-peat to 2nd Round loser and were borderline .500 in 95' before MJ lifted them to 3-peat in his first full seasons back.

Pippen was never a franchise player that was asked to build a lottery team from scratch - he was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever, which he quickly crashed as everyone knew he would... Everyone knew the bubble would burst, and it did once opponents woke up in the playoffs and following season..

22 years has confirmed that no lineup, franchise, coach, Tom, Dick or Harry can get Lebron anywhere NEAR a 3-peat, 70 wins, 2 three-peats, or the best basketball (dynasty or dominant champion)..

Dynasty is defined as a team that mostly won for a material stretch of 5+ years (i.e. 3 in 5), and a dominant champion is a playoff run that averages 1 loss per round or less (4 losses max)...

Dynasties and dominant champions represent the best basketball, and history shows that 12 of 12 instances of "the best basketball" required highly-assisted 1st options, and never low-assisted ball-dominators like the Luka, Lebron, SGA, Trae Young, etc.. The issue is that low-assisted 1st options have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement, while highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has.

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Triangle Offense Cliff Notes

Jordan set an unprecedented blueprint by winning 6 chips in the triangle, and then Phil took the blueprint to LA upon seeing the only MJ-copycat out of millions that was actually the real deal..

So Phil is just an incredibly lucky coach that didn't even know or understand MJ's game... Think about the strong belief that Phil required to tell MJ to his face that "you won't be scoring champ anymore in this offense"... It was a real authoritarian move where he was putting MJ in his place... But again, Phil and Tex didn't have the assisted rate stat back then, so they couldn't see that Jordan's buckets were already highly-assisted and therefore fit into the triangle - this meant that Jordan would remain scoring champ and win with the triangle basically right away.

So Phil is just lucky to have the goat set the goat blueprint and then inspire a copycat to win 5 more - the goat off-guards were required to win with the toughest offense ever that didn't use low-assisted players (no point guard role - no Lebron's, Luka's or Harden's).

Winning in the triangle is a goat achievement, which is why it never won without MJ's blueprint or his copycat Kobe.. Accordingly, the triangle isn't a savior that anyone can win with, otherwise Lebron would've used the triangle to win 6 chips - he had plenty of time from 05 to 14' before Curry's 3-point era took over.. And everyone would've supported his choice to use the blueprint.... Or he could've used ANY ball movement system to hang with the Nuggets, Spurs or Warriors, but instead his ball-dominance gets routinely swept and destroyed by their ball movement.

Ultimately, Jordan saved 1st-timers like Pippen and Phil, while Lebron was saved by champions and ready-made stars that were equal-scoring partners and outplayed league MVP's for him (Kyrie outplaying Curry, or AD over Jokic or Wade outplaying Dirk twice in the Finals).

Wow Lebron's efficiency on game-winners is horrible and far below his regular efficiency, which indicates a massive choke factor.

Otoh, MJ had zero choke factor because his regular efficiency and game-winner efficiency was the same.

Accordingly, clutch efficiency is a weakness for Lebron along with FT's, turnovers, jumpshooting efficiency, assisted rate/team assists, ball movement, chemistry, young player development (imposes spot-up roles that prevents teammate development and chemistry).

Otoh, MJ had no weaknesses.

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The current GOAT standard

* produce the best basketball, aka dynasties and dominant champions

* have little or no losses with favorite status, homecourt, all-star teammates, top seeds, or Finals teams

* have GOAT production rates and "dominance", such as #1 in PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, plus/minus, raptor, and more

* Proven ability to carry weak help over top teams (beat top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick), and defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on the highest level/Finals).

* no weaknesses - nothing is a liability (i.e. FT's, turnovers, assisted rate/off-ball, ball movement/team assists, jumpshooting efficiency, clutch efficiency, etc)

* Proven ability to win with "normal" casts of 1 franchise player, instead of needing franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option (super-teams)

* a strong record of teammate elevation & young player development - teammates grow statistically and play near capacity/career highs

* proven track record of the best brand of ball and learning the chemistry required to win with the roster they were given (organically) - consistently-great teammate fits, chemistry, #1 offenses and anything else that confirms the best brand of ball

Will anyone ever meet or exceed these current GOAT standards?

Merry Christmas FG. I hope LeBron has a terrible game so you can enjoy the day.

Rooting for a Lebron triple double + game winner.

That's not the spirit.

You have to give FG the small wins, as he has lost all the other arguments.

I won every argument... This is obvious to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that read the posts..

The problem is that you don't read the posts and prefer to side with a child instead of admitting that you fell for a fraud - it reveals very low character and immaturity on your part.

Everything I've said about Lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance, weak chemistry, perennial losing, and inability to produce the best basketball has been statistically-proven itt, so I never make "arguments" - I simply inform you of the historical record.. Enjoy your holiday with these facts in mind

Triple-double = ball-dominance = doesn't produce the best basketball (dynasty or dominant champion)

This has been statistically vetted and proven itt

There's nothing more overrated then a triple-double (losing basketball).. The only exception is Jokic because he does it without ball-domination (he's a highly-assisted player)

Lebron's efficiency on game-winners is atrocious and proves that he's the goat choker.

Major weaknesses for Lebron include clutch efficiency, jumpshooting efficiency (anything outside of 5 feet), turnovers, FT's, assisted rate/team assists and chemistry

According to Lebron fans, being the goat offensive player and one of the goat defenders, while winning 2 three-peats in 3-pointer basketball - if this isn't goat, then what is?

Putting the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team to make the Finals and then mostly losing the Finals isn't goat - it's a knee-slapper and laughing stock.. And plenty of guys beat dynasties like Chauncey Billups, Bird, Duncan and many more..

Ultimately, 22 years confirms that there's no lineup, roster, franchise, coach or team that can get Lebron a 3-peat, 70 wins, a dynasty, or 6 chips, so he's objectively inferior to Jordan.

I understand where some of the disconnect is.

For example, someone like Fidstar might say that MJ is goat because of the 6 chips and goat winning in the modern era, while my posts explain why his skillset and highly-assisted skillsets in general produce the best basketball (dynasties and dominant champions) and the best team ceilings/Finals records.

It's about ball movement and the superior chemistry that highly-assisted skillsets produce - this superior brand and way of playing wins more with less, especially when led by the most dominant player ever (goat production rates, aka PER, etc).

If there's no roster, franchise, or coach or that can get Lebron a 3-peat, 70 wins or 6 chips, then doesn't that make him objectively inferior to Jordan??

Furthermore ,if 22 years of lineups and coaches isn't long enough, then how many seasons would it take for you guys to accept that he just isn't capable of this goat caliber??

And if 0 for 12 isn't enough, how many more dynasties or dominant champions must occur before you accept that low-assisted players cannot be 1st option for them?

When we look up the career leaders in RPG, APG and PPG, we see that the only category with a big gap between 1 and 2 is the most important category of scoring scoring.. Jordan led everyone in history by 5 PPG in the playoffs and 3 PPG in the regular season.. The only exceptions are Iverson (4 PPG edge over Iverson in playoffs), while Luka doesn't fulfill minimum game requirements.

If course, scoring is the most important category because the best players on any team must be good scorers, but they don't have to be good defenders, passers or rebounders, since role players can do these secondary categories.