LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Oh and also so you don’t pull the argument by completely ignoring or argument by pighead (lmao I love that) the other part:

You said Luka was still a GOAT-tier international player, even though he was ball dominant, because he only averaged 16 ppg.

Giving you the huge, unproven, premises that it is bad to score a lot of points unassisted (god only knows what that criteria even is anymore), and that LeBron didn’t do it, and that LeBron couldn’t do it, are you actually saying LeBron James is incapable of averaging fewer ppg?

I mean I would not be surprised if you’re actually arguing that now but it would indeed still be hilarious in a thread full of hilarious.

I predict that the Lakers will contend because they got rid of their suboptimal 2 point guard lineups by getting rid of D-Lo - this allows Lebron to be the only point guard/ball-dominator on the floor, which will improve ball movement.. Teammates will have more assists and time with the ball now that there's only 1 guy dominating it - there's only 1 guy hogging the assists instead of 2.... Of course, Lebron still has a high volume of unassisted buckets as a high-scoring ball-dominator, but that's still a step up from the ridiculous 2 point guard lineups that crater everyone's assists and mostly loses with super-teams... Pat yourselves on the back Laker fans - the fraud continues.

That's fine that he won once by scraping 40% assisted rate, but any player that peaks at 40% like prime Lebron cannot produce dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball)... Only players that bottom-out at 40% and are between 40-60 for their career produce the best basketball... 40-60 players (Jokic, Curry, MJ) are much different from 20-40 players (Luka, Lebron, Harden) - the latter cannot produce the best basketball.

Have you ever thought about simplifying your argument by just listing the assisted fg% for LeBron James for every year in his career, and saying “by decree, any player that has had an assisted fg% of this number in this year of his career cannot be good because this is not the optimal assisted fg% for the years in question.”

That way you’ve covered all your bases and there can be no counter examples. Or does that sound too ridiculous and it’s a step too far even for you? Lmao

Euroleague doesn't let 1 guy shoot a lot, so even though Luka dominated the ball by averaging 10 APG in only 25 minutes, he wasn't allowed to average 30 points like the NBA lets him do.

It's standard to win MVP in Euroleague with 16 ppg like Luka did, or like a former teammate of mine and Lebron's (Anthony Parker).. Parker won multiple Euroleague MVP's with 16 ppg and had one of the best international careers ever... (btw, lebron and i shared another teammate as well - Carlos Arroyo).

So I have no doubt that Lebron could be MVP of Euroleague, and I'm not sure what your point is... The issue is that when Luka or Lebron score in much higher volumes like they do in the NBA, then the assisted rate becomes a factor because now there's a large volume of unassisted buckets - it's the large volume of unassisted buckets that hinders team assists, while small volumes is fine like the lower-scorers have (Magic, Nash, or Euroleague Luka).

I feel like we summarized it pretty well - 1st options between 20-40% cannot produce the best basketball, while 1st options between 40-60 did 12 of 12 times...

Of we could say it another way too - if a player peaks at 40%, then this isn't the type of player that can be 1st option on a dynasty... If the player troughs at 40%, then this is the type of 1st option that produced the best basketball 12 of 12 times.

You’re almost there!!

Now, since LeBron James has averaged a 40-60% assisted fg% nine times (yes, nine times!) in his career, this is historical evidence that he is a) capable, or b) incapable of averaging 40-60% assisted fg% in the game of basketball. The game we are talking about.

The answer is either a) capable, or b) incapable. Choose one. Consider this the world’s easiest applied math+basketball knowledge test.

Choose wisely. But I’m 100% sure your brain is going to shut down now and you’re going to write something completely unrelated. Now go!

So, you’re saying LeBron is perfectly capable of playing in the international style of play, the one you said is superior and develops superior ball players. And he could be MVP.

Therefore, the conclusion is, and my point:

LeBron is perfectly capable of integrating into a high ball movement offense. Meaning his skillset is easily transferrable to a Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, or Steve Kerr offense. Proving it is LeBron’s role, as has been defined by his coaches, in the offenses he plays in that has primarily determined his scoring, assist rate, and assisted fg%. And that coach and scheme matter when building a dynasty.

Matt R. You are a genius!

Of course Lebron can average a pathetic 16 ppg to win Euroleague MVP, and he can probably just bully-ball his way to MVP versus guys like Anthony Parker (arguably the Euroleague GOAT).

But the problem is that he scores unassisted, so at NBA scoring levels, he can't be 1st option on a dominant champion or dynasty.

So maybe he can be 2nd option on Popovich or Kerr's teams as a low-scoring player... But he can't be 1st option at NBA scoring levels, otherwise it's too many unassisted buckets (high-scoring ball-domination), which has never been 1st option on a dynasty or dominant champion (the best basketball).

We did it buddy - we figured it out - 1st options with assisted rates between 20-40% (ball-dominators) cannot be 1st option for the best basketball, while 1st options with 40-60% assisted rates (jumpshooters or bigs) were 1st option 12 of 12 times.. Since the best jumpshooters and bigs can produce the best basketball, they're superior to the best ball-dominators - this is why the first ball-dominators appear in my rankings at 11, 12, and 13 (Magic, Lebron, Oscar).

Low-assisted players aren't used in Kerr or Phil Jackson's systems, so Lebron's skillset literally ISN'T transferrable.

If the triangle was a panacea to win titles, then didn't Lebron use it to win?... Why hasn't ANY ball-dominator in history used a ball movement system?... You can't claim Luka, Lebron and all ball-dominators in history simply had the wrong coach every single time.

Why do they always run a ball-dominant offense and lower teammates' assists?.. Why has this happened 100% of the time with high-scoring ball-dominators?.. Why have NONE of them run a ball movement offense?... It's because the skillset of 1st options dictates style of play, such as prime Shaq forcing every team to play in-out, or Lebron and every ball-dominator in history forcing coaches to run a ball-dominant offense with low average ranking in team assists.

Since 1997, players that averaged 25 ppg with below 40% assisted rate produced a top 5 assist team 5 of 96 times (5%), compared to 36 of 87 times (41%) for 25 ppg scorers with 50% assisted rate or more.. So coaches cannot run a consistent ball movement offense with ball-dominators - this is intuitive btw.

So it's the style and skillset (assisted or not) of the biggest bucket-getter (1st option) that dictates a team's style of play (team assists)... Carry on in ignorance though, sigh.. It's a free country.

Out of curiosity FG. Cavs went 16-5 in the 2016 playoffs. Do you think this run was more (or less) impressive than your dominate Champions? Being that most of those dominate Champions either lose to or, at best, need 7 games to beat the 73 win Warriors.

We have literally proven that LeBron James is capable of scoring at an assisted rate of 40-60% because he has done it nine times in his career. Argument by pigheadedness is not a valid argument.

He would act as a hybrid scorer/facilitator just like he has for 20+ years — he would just do it under a much better coach and a much, much better system. Yes his ppg may go down (like MJ’s did), but his other responsibilities such as playmaking would skyrocket.

And if he happened to land on a roster with 3 elite off ball shooters he’d probably act more as a playmaker and average 13 assists per game and still average 20+ ppg. You know, because he has already done similar things with vastly inferior coaching to Phil Jackson, Pop, and Kerr.

I mean, rankings are subjective, but I disagree that Magic never led a dynasty nor dominant team lmao. It’s almost like there are other skillsets besides assisted fg%.

Oh luckily we have proof that LeBron James has had an assisted rate of 40-60% 9 times in his career. Facts are awesome you should try them sometime. Argument by pigheadedness is not a valid argument.

Because, dumbass: he never had a coach that ran the triangle.

You do understand a ball movement system and a heliocentric system are mutually exclusive, yes?

If you are asking me why Luka Doncic could be league MVP at Real Madrid and also be a high scoring ball dominator with the Mavericks it’s because they are different teams with different coaches and different systems, as everyone has been trying to explain to you.

“Wrong coach”? No, they had different coaches that ran different systems. Which is like, factually true. And these different systems allowed LeBron to win 3 titles in 5 years with two different cities (and a 4th at a later time) due to his versatility in adapting to different systems. This is all historical fact.

Because the coaches in question do not run ball movement offenses. Are you really this dumb?

No. Why didn’t Doug Collins run the triangle with MJ? Why didn’t Mark Jackson run a triangle inspired hybrid offense with Steph Curry? Think hard about this one. I mean really hard.

No. You have it exactly backwards. One cannot dominate the ball in a motion offense, by definition. They are mutually exclusive. Many (most?) player can adapt their games to different offenses though. This is intuitive… because it literally happens all time. Argument by pigheadedness is not a valid argument.

The 2016 Cavs were the only team in the league with 3 franchise players, while every other team only had 1, so the Cavs were given preseason favorite status and expected to win the title.

Unfortunately, the Cavs fell to underdog by the time the Finals arrived due to a vastly underachieving regular season of 57 wins, despite having a "dream team" roster that historically gets 65+ wins, if we use the 86' Celtics or 87' Lakers as comparisons.. Or if you think that's unfair, then the 07' Mavs or 09' Lakers, who clearly had much less talent... The professional statisticians (above) back this idea that the 15' and 16' Cavs were among the most stacked rosters of all-time.

Regarding the actual playoff run, there's 2 losses in the ECF to the #6 SRS Raptors, meh... The teams on the "dominant champions" list would sweep them... Then there's the Finals where Lebron averaged 24 and 6 TO's to get a 1-3 deficit despite having 2 extra franchise players compared to Curry, and also the unprecedented help of a sidekick outplaying the current MVP (the hottest thing going in the league).

Ultimately, this was a lucky title that the Cavs weren't supposed to win if Silver doesn't interfere and Bogut/Iggy don't get hurt late in the series when both teams were on fumes.. The Warriors had JUST ENOUGH gas in the tank to win 73 and the title, so the Draymond suspension cut off a well-running engine - there's no way to get it back and running in time... Silver is just a m*%#@&$*# c*cksucker.. So to answer your question - not that impressive.

Lebron's assisted rate peaked at 40% twice from 2006 to 2021 and averaged 36 percent, otherwise he was a lottery player or fossilized like Wizards' MJ in every other instance.

Players that range between 20-40% during their prime cannot produce the best basketball, while 1st options that are between 40-60 did 12 of 12 times.

Of we could say it another way too - if a player peaks at 40%, then this isn't the type of player that can be 1st option on a dynasty... If the player troughs at 40%, then this is the type of 1st option that produced the best basketball 12 of 12 times.

There's no playmaking in systems - only ball movement... MJ or Curry make a dribble forays once in a while, but the primary offense is ball movement and that's how guys get shots on most possessions.. They don't get shots with one guy dribbling and then finding someone - that's why Lebron's ball-dominant skillset doesn't fit into a ball movement system - this intuitive.

If Lebron is "facilitating", that means dominating the ball, which isn't allowed in any system.. Ball movement systems don't allow Lebron's ball-dominance and high volume of unassisted buckets, nor Luka's, nor SGA's, or ANY ball-dominator.

you either play lebron-ball OR a system - it can't be both.. So Lebron simply cannot fit into any system because systems don't allow high volumes of unassisted buckets, which is the skillset of every high-scoring ball-dominator in history.

Kerr, Paxson, Derek Fisher, Curry, Jordan, Durant, Klay, Draymond, or Pippen had 50-60% assisted rates or higher, so it's mathematically impossible for ball movement systems to use high scorers with low-assisted rates of 30-40% like Lebron, Luka or any "ball-dominator" type (high scorer with low-assisted rate).

This proves you wrong mathematically - high scorers with low-assisted rates like Lebron cannot play in dynasty systems.. If Lebron was forced into a system, he would be a low scorer, since his buckets are unassisted and minimized in a ball movement offense... Otoh, MJ's buckets were assisted, so his scoring increased in the triangle - this includes 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals, or 34/7/7 in the 91-93' Playoffs... And his regular season averages barely changed from 32.8 to 31.4 when we compare 85-90' to 91-93'.

Magic was a leader, but not the 1st option... There's never been a low-assisted player (dribbler) that was 1st option on a dynasty...

assisted rate IS the catalyst.

You should be aware when people aren't buying BS... Lebron's assisted rate peaked at 40% twice from 2006 to 2021 and averaged 36%, otherwise he was a lottery player or fossilized like Wizards' Jordan in every other instance.

Players that range between 20-40% during their prime cannot produce the best basketball, while 1st options that are between 40-60 did 12 of 12 times.

Of we could say it another way too - if a player peaks at 40%, then this isn't the type of player that can be 1st option on a dynasty... If the player troughs at 40%, then this is the type of 1st option that produced the best basketball 12 of 12 times.

No ball-dominator had a coach that ran a ball movement system because it's impossible to have ball movement with a bunch of unassisted buckets and one guy dribbling all the time.

Every single one???.... Ball-dominators got the wrong coach 100 out of 100 times or however many it's been??

You lost bud.... And it's okaaaaaay

lmao.... I would never ask you a question about basketball.

Luka is a low-assisted ball-dominator whether he averages 16 or 30..... At 30 ppg, he can't produce the best basketball (dynasties or champions).

He was going to win without it... They were nearly beating the Bad Boys with Pippen getting 9.7 on 40%, so once Pippen gets to 15 ppg, it's over...

It's a double-standard... i.e. MJ clearly just needed a tad more help in 89', which is similar to Lebron in various years, yet the narrative is that Lebron needed more help and MJ needed Phil... But MJ just needed a little more from his sidekick like 15 ppg instead of 9, which means that Phil is just a lucky bum that had the GOAT make his little-known and otherwise hated offense a household name.

Ultimately, Bird and Magic needed super-teams, while MJ just needed a 15 ppg sidekick to win the series.... 22 from Pippen was overkill and enough for a 14' Spurs-style blowout that left Isiah to embarrassed to shake hands.
.

The 2016 Cavs were the only team in the league with 3 franchise players, while every other team only had 1, so the Cavs were given preseason favorite status and expected to win the title.

Unfortunately, the Cavs fell to underdog by the time the Finals arrived due to a vastly underachieving regular season of 57 wins, despite having a "dream team" roster that historically gets 65+ wins, if we use the 86' Celtics or 87' Lakers as comparisons.. Or if you think that's unfair, then the 07' Mavs or 09' Lakers, who clearly had much less talent... The professional statisticians (above) back this idea that the 15' and 16' Cavs were among the most stacked rosters of all-time.

Regarding the actual playoff run, there's 2 losses in the ECF to the #6 SRS Raptors, meh... The teams on the "dominant champions" list would sweep them... Then there's the Finals where Lebron averaged 24 and 6 TO's to get a 1-3 deficit despite having 2 extra franchise players compared to Curry, and also the unprecedented help of a sidekick outplaying the current MVP (the hottest thing going in the league).

Ultimately, this was a lucky title that the Cavs weren't supposed to win if Silver doesn't interfere and Bogut/Iggy don't get hurt late in the series when both teams were on fumes.. The Warriors had JUST ENOUGH gas in the tank to win 73 and the title, so the Draymond suspension cut off a well-running engine - there's no way to get it back and running in time... Silver is just a m*%#@&$*# c*cksucker.. So to answer your question - not that impressive.

fallguy,

are basketball games played "on paper" OR on hardwood?

Answer the question with either item, not a pigheaded wall of text.

Lebron's skillset produces bad chemistry that underachieves the favored, on-paper talent that he hand-picks.

Then the media shills.

It's quite the fraud.

I'm thinking of a Dexter quote.

"It's like watching someone ski moguls. You just hop from one lie to the next. No shame, no embarrassment."

Feel like it applies here.

"franchise player" kevin love averaged 8/6 in the 2016 Finals, and didn't even play one of the games

awesome post chilly.

What are your thoughts on the biggest WWE moment in NBA history with the screw job on the Kings for one of Kobe's rings?

Love's 8/6 in the 16' Finals was his assigned role per "bron-ball" and it was overshadowed by the unprecedented help of a sidekick outplaying the current MVP - imagine if Terry Porter outplayed MJ in the 92' Finals - losing would be impossible in this scenario, and yet "bron-ball" still almost screwed it up.

Finally, the 2018 Playoffs showed that Love helped Lebron when needed against the top 5 SRS teams by getting 20/10 against the Raptors and Warriors.. This matters because Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, so he desperately needed Love's 20/10 vs the Raptors for example.. Love was the only all-star sidekick in the 18' East, while Kyrie played in 12 of 14 games in the 15 East Playoffs, so the only time that Lebron took a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it (01' Iverson, 02' Kidd, 09' Dwight).

A "franchise player" is an elite producer that was asked to build a lottery team from scratch.. Kevin Love fits that mold as a top 5-10 player in 2014.

Love and Bosh were All-NBA players, while Pau was just a 1x all-star before joining Kobe... NBA history shows that true franchise players like Love, Bosh, and KAT get All-NBA without winning titles or even having playoff success, while secondary-producers or "sidekicks" like Pau, Klay, Pippen, Dumars, Parker, and Ginobili need titles before getting All-NBA - they need to be inflated by the winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA.

I thought accolades and awards didn't mean anything?

I mean clearly they don't if a guy like Kobe who only won 1mvp and only finished second once, and has just 2 finals MVP's is somehow magically fanboyed up to 2nd all time.

Kobe is a supporting player who only got seen as a franchise player after he lucked out and got taken to some championships by a franchise player named Shaq.

Kobe is more like Pippen or Pau basically by your own argument now.

It's hard to even put Kobe in the top 20 now.

That's fair.... The 2002 Kings were completely jobbed.

But this doesn't matter in the Kobe-Lebron debate for several reasons..

Firstly, Lebron choked in 2011, so he owes Wade a ring and cost Wade his 2nd FMVP - it's like a negative ring and everyone knows this... Secondly, if we take away Kobe's 2002 chip, this does nothing to diminish his stature vs Lebron, i.e. Kobe's superiority is due to 2 chips with a 2nd option that was worse than Lebron's 3rd options (Bosh & Love).. Thirdly, Kobe still got much closer to a 3-peat on 2 separate occasions in 2002 and 08-10' than Lebron did with the Heat (record blowout or goat choke - take your pick of the horrific loss that stopped the 3-peat).

You're right - I hate media awards - I was just using your guys' logic (media awards) against you, so lets use the numbers instead:

4 seasons before joining Lebron and Kobe

11-14' BOSH...... 22.9.. 10.1... 2.5... 23.3 PER....3.3 BPM.... 0.178 WS/48... 14.1 VORP
11-14' LOVE....... 23.5.. 13.7... 3.0... 25.0 PER....5.8 BPM.... 0.216 WS/48... 16.6 VORP
04-07' PAU......... 19.2.... 8.4... 3.3... 22.7 PER....4.1 BPM.... 0.171 WS/48... 14.7 VORP

For "bron-ball" to win as the 1st option, he needed franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option, and still mostly lost.

Otoh, Kobe won with less help because his chemistry was better - he didn't need to dominate the ball and impose spot-up roles to achieve great stats.

"bron-ball" is confirmed as underachieving favored rosters the most ever by virtue of the most losses ever with preseason favorites and Finals teams, or bevies of losses with multiple all-star teammates, homecourt and 1 or 2 seeds.