LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Here's Jamal Crawford saying that the best he ever played was alongside MJ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knISWG-t...

Here's Phil Jackson saying that if he had to choose 1 player to start a franchise between Shaq, Kobe, or Jordan, that it would be Jordan because he was "extremely coachable":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knISWG-t...

In my view, "coachable" means various intangibles like maturity but also a skillset that can produce assisted buckets to facilitate whatever ball movement scheme is being installed - it's suboptimal to have a 1st option skillset with many unassisted buckets that limits the way the team can play.
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Thread Cliffs

The "best basketball" can be defined as dominant champions that averaged 1 loss per round or less (4 losses max), or dynasties that mostly won for a material stretch of 5+ years (i.e. 3 in 5 years).

Accordingly, since possession-tracking began in 1997, 1st options with assisted rates that ranged between 40-60% in their primes (jumpshooters or bigs) were 1st option for 12 of 12 dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball).. Otoh, 1st options with assisted rates between 20-40% in their prime (ball-dominators) were never 1st option for the best basketball (0 for 12).

Since the best jumpshooters and bigs produce the best basketball, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, so the first ball-dominators appear in the all-time rankings at 11th, 12th, and 13th (Magic, Lebron, Oscar).. The issue is that low-assisted 1st options have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement, while highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has.

The full rankings are MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar - the 2nd thru 10th spots are more interchangeable and subjective, but it's set in stone that MJ is #1 and ball-dominators are no higher than 11th, based on the previous logic that ball-dominators are never the 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions).

"coachable" does not mean that. I mean where the **** would you get something like that other than in your own mythical world. The funny thing is that this is more a shot at how uncoachable Kobe was.

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3-POINT EFFICIENCY FOR REGULAR SEASON GAMES WHERE MJ HAD 3+ ATTEMPTS:

1985...... 4-18
1986...... 3-6
1987...... 5-22
1988...... 1-3
1989...... 16-49
1990...... 75-187
1991...... 11-30
1992...... 13-39
1993...... 68-185
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total....... 196-539 (36.4%)

3-POINT EFFICIENCY FOR PLAYOFF SERIES WITH 3+ ATTEMPTS - regular line only (HIGHLIGHTED BELOW):

53-135 (39.2%)

TLDR: From 85-93', Jordan shot 36.4% on threes in games that he had 3+ attempts (539 attempts), and 39% in series with 3+ attempts (regular line only) - aka there's no record of MJ shooting poorly at today's volumes - he only had sub-par efficiency at "bailout" volume (extremely low volume - only bailouts taken)... Since MJ always shot well at today's volumes despite no practice (36-39%), he would be elite in today's game WITH practice (40% or more).

Maturity doesn't make someone more coachable??.. Of course it does. Have you ever coached? (of course not).

And coaches have never run ball movement systems with ball-dominators like Harden, Luka or Lebron because their skillset requires the ball in their hands to get a bunch of unassisted buckets (20-40% assisted rate in prime).. This makes them uncoachable for ball movement systems that minimize unassisted buckets and don't use low-assisted players at all in the offense.

Why can't 100+ seasons without a ball movement system for low-assisted 1st options (ball-dominators) confirm that they don't run ball movement systems like highly-assisted 1st options do?? (Jokic, Curry, MJ, etc)???... Why must we defy the this obvious historical record and assume they would??..

Btw, when I say that MJ would shoot well from three at today's volumes, that's based on a career of him doing exactly that (see previous post).

He probably shot above average in games with 45+ points too, that's not how stats work

Thread Cliffs:

fallguy has his very own mythical world where he interprets data wildly and defines things to fit his own specific narratives.

If you can't refute the stats, then they stand

Saying that you don't like the stats isn't a response

So don't get mad.... Be glad that you can just look at a player's assisted rate, and if it ranges between 20-40% in their prime, then you know they're a ball-dominator like Luka or Lebron and won't produce a dynasty or dominant champion... Otoh, if their assisted rate ranges between 40-60%, then you know this is the type of assisted scoring that 12 of 12 dynasties or dominant champions had from their 1st option.

Jordan sucked at 3's and didn't have the range except for when the league needed to give it's unskilled players a Mickey Mouse 3 point line. Only a fool could actually believe those mental gymnastics of only looking at the games where he took more of them.

Not even close to analogous.. Sounds like you never played either and don't know what rhythm is for shooters... Great shooters shoot better with higher volume - it's telling that Jordan always shot well at 3+ attempts in every season or series, while Lebron has many examples of shooting like dogsh*t at 3+ attempts - many seasons or series...

Ultimately, Jordan was the goat 2-point jumpshooter and always shot well from three at today's volumes despite zero practice.. He's the only goat-level athlete in history that was also a goat shooter (on either 2's or 3's) - it's just another reason he's goat, in addition to all the others...

Otoh, all the other goat athletes like Giannis, Lebron, Dr. J, Zion, Dominique, Blake Griffin - they're all bricklayers, while Jordan is a top 10 all-time jumpshooter according to Kevin frieking Durant - I think he would know, smh
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You should understand that Jordan was polarized with threes because he either didn't want to shoot any and only took forced, bailout volume (1 or less), or he was clearly trying to take threes and would attempt 3+ (and invariably shoot well.

There was no middle ground of seasons with 2 attempts or whatever - it was either 1 bailout attempt or 3+ attempts where he's making a concerted effort to take some threes.

Ultimately, how can you say that he wouldn't shoot well at today's volumes when he always did during his actual career?

The argument that Jordan can't shoot threes at today's volumes requires evidence of him shooting poorly at 3+ attempts and there are no such examples from the regular line, except the 90' ECF... That's the only season or series where he didn't shoot at today's standard when he had 3+ attempts, otherwise the numbers in the previous post show him shooting 36-39% in all regular season games of 3+ attempts, or playoff series (regular line).

Yeah, when I mentioned last time that when MJ might have possibly taken more 3s when he made his first one, and not if he missed it was met with "Of course not".

Durant says MJ is a top 5 or 10 all-time jumpshooter:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GXrzZmJgzb...

So I guess players know what they're talking.

Just an FYI - Jordan has among the best shooting form ever - picture perfect - Durant knows this and anyone with such great form, release and touch simply could never have the 3-point shot be a "liability".

This is bball 101 beginner stuff - threes aren't a liability for a sick shooter like Jordan that simply rarely took them back then (and the few times he did, he shot fine... They weren't a "liability" like Lebron's FT's, turnovers, clutch efficiency or mid-range... We all remember when the 13' Spurs let Lebron shoot wide open mid-range and he averaged 16 on 39% to get a 1-2 deficit that needed the Allen miracle..

So mid-range was a real liability for Lebron, while the Blazers found out that MJ shoots 43% on 5 attempts when you hope it's a liability.... Jordan also won the 93' title by shooting 39% on 4 attempts for the playoffs and Finals, so he already won titles and multiple Finals by shooting at today's standard.

If you can't see that Jordan had one of the best shooting strokes ever, then you have a shallow understanding of basketball because you should know what great shooting form looks like.

Are you saying that Jordan generally made his first three during the 1990 and 1993 seasons when he had 3 attempts, and then mostly missed his first attempt every other year that he had 1 attempt?

Dumbest thing itt

We've been over this - you, Nick Wright and others that say this are projecting.... YOU GUYS get scared and stop shooting after you miss, so you think others must do the same.. For anyone that can dominate their competition, they are never afraid to shoot... For example, are guys typically scared to shoot against you if they happen to miss the first shot?... Seems unlikely and absurd.... This is how a dominant NBA player feels against their competition, or a dominant chess player, or any dominant competitor - they don't get scared after a single miss at the beginning, or at any point - it's diametrically opposed to being dominant.. It's so absurd because MJ, Kobe and literally any good scorer is known to keep shooting.

So just for fun I looked up LeBron's higher attempt 3 point games.

Since joining the Lakers, LeBron has 38 games with 10+ attempts from 3.

He's 197/422 in those games, 46.7 percent.

lol. Check mate FG.

Dumb as thinking a guy who can shoot 40% from 3 just decides some games he's going to shoot some and others he won't for no reason?

Yes, if you make your first 3, you are probably going to shoot some more if you aren't a regular 3 point shooter.

fidstar,
To me, “coachable” means having an assisted fg% between 40 and 60%, and having a higher 3 point percentage in games you shoot more threes. Unless LeBron has had an assisted fg% between 40 and 60% nine separate times and has a much higher 3 point % than Jordan when shooting more threes. Then that doesn’t count. In fact, to me, that means LeBron is “uncoachable” and Phil Jackson is actually speaking in subliminal code.

I thought of an analogy.

Imagine the first hand of High Stakes Poker where Player A c-bets and Player B calls with a draw.. When the turn bricks, Player B throws up their hands and says "That's it I'm done!!!!... No more calling a draw the rest of the night under any circumstance for me"

This is what you're saying basketball players do when they stop shooting threes after missing the 1st one - they defy the long run expectation of making sufficient percentage by not taking any more after missing the first... This is obviously horrible strategy and no one does it... Btw, these are the lengths required to demonstrate how the game works to non-players.. So again, Nick Wright, Fidstar and others that say players stop shooting after missing are wrong - they're just projecting...

TLDR: Jordan's 3-point stats at 3+ attempts represent his efficiency when he had today's volumes and not his efficiency when he made the first one, smh

Players shoot more if they feel hot but it takes a lot more than 1 miss to see if tonight's the night.

See poker analogy above

^^^ fixed

Dynasties and dominant champions (the best basketball) can only be produced by 1st options in their prime and Lebron's assisted rate was 29-41% from 2006 to 2021, while barely scraping 40 twice and a 38% career average (36 in his prime).

So everything stands - 1st options with assisted rates that averaged over 40% for their career and 40-60% in their primes (jumpshooters or bigs) were 1st option for 12 of 12 dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball).. Otoh, 1st options with assisted rates that average under 40% for their career and between 20-40% in their prime (ball-dominators) were never 1st option for the best basketball (0 for 12).

Since the best jumpshooters and bigs produce the best basketball, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, so the first ball-dominators appear in the all-time rankings at 11th, 12th, and 13th (MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar).
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Go look up his 3pt on the 1st attempt in games he had 3+ and compare to the 1st attempt in games with 1-2 attempts. I predict there is at least a 10% gap between them.

Also obviously the years with the short line don't matter.

I mean no disrespect, but you guys exhibit the kind of extreme dumbness on this that one can only conclude you never played on any level whatsoever.. You guys come from other walks of life and only got interested in the game around the time PER came into the mainstream - you got excited because you thought you could solve the game with numbers - this has ruined the game (thanks a lot) and all your numbers like PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP still show MJ to be the GOAT.

Bottom line - hoopers don't stop shooting after the first miss.. I'm sorry that you never played and can't understand how the game works....No MJ did not shoot 1 attempt for most of his career because he happened to miss his first attempt in all those seasons - that's your fabrication to ignore the truth out of MJ's mouth that he didn't want to shoot threes, so the years of 1 attempt were infact forced, "bailout" volume (extremely low volume from guys that otherwise don't shoot threes)..

It's also common knowledge and documented fact that he decided to shoot more threes in the 1990 and 93' seasons specifically, or the shortened line seasons.. Or when Portland was letting him shoot in 92' - I think that he missed his first few threes... Btw, if a guy makes his first three but then misses his next 2, then what happens then - does he stop shooting again??.. Again, this is the dumbest thing ever to anyone that played... KD disagrees with you (see next post).

Here's the correct link with KD saying that Jordan is a top 5 or 10 all-time jumpshooter:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GXrzZmJgzb...

We all remember when the 13' Spurs let Lebron shoot wide open mid-range and he averaged 16 on 39% to get a 1-2 deficit that needed the Allen miracle..

So mid-range was a real liability for Lebron, while the Blazers found out that MJ shoots 43% on 5 attempts when you hope that threes are a liability for him.... Jordan also won the 93' title by shooting 39% on 4 attempts for the playoffs and Finals, so he already won titles and multiple Finals by shooting at today's standard.

If you can't see that Jordan had one of the best shooting strokes ever, then you have a shallow understanding of basketball because you should know what great shooting form looks like.

No one is saying MJ will stop shooting, but he is likely to shoot more 3s on a night that he makes his 1st one. If he misses the first one he's more liekly to just go work in the post on mid range shots.