LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

That isn’t what I was envisioning when u spoke about ZERO defense and adding a 6’10’’ guy like stoudemire .

I was literally seeing a team like trea young, Iverson, Thomas , curry ,etc .

yeah but all the data shows that great individual defenders aren't the driver of a great team defense.

Aside from teams with dominant defensive centers, teams often improve defensively after losing their top individual defenders - i.e. the Bulls' improved defensively in 94' without MJ, or 95' without Horace, or 98' without Pippen for the 1st half of year when the Bulls had the #1 defense.

So despite losing great individual defenders, the Bulls improved defensively because they had developed long-standing chemistry and culture of effort.. Similarly, we saw the 2023 Nuggets play goat-level defense in the Finals despite lacking great individual defenders.. Again, the Nuggets were a team that developed long-standing chemistry and great culture - this is far more important than having great individual defenders, which is why the Nuggets locked up the red-hot Heat, who had just blown the doors off the #1 defense Celtics in ECF.. Btw, the fact that great individual defense isn't necessarily a part of great team defense makes Pippen overrated, especially in light of his worst-ever efficiency on offense and low peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq, which forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention/carry scoring load).

So there's no excuses for a team not playing great defense when they need to - any team that has developed great chemistry and culture should be able to get stops when needed.. This is part of the reason it's absolutely a knock on Lebron's skillset that he has a massive trend of weak chemistry and bad fits during his 21-year career - this includes weak fits with Love, Bosh, Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, Jamison, Wade, IT, and many more.. This weak chemistry hurts the defensive side of the ball, as well as offense, and ultimately leads to team underachievement (turning preseason favorites into underdog or loser).

Lebron's skillset yields inferior chemistry because he lacks expert jumpshooting skill - this lack of off-ball ability yields a point guard hold-time and assisted rate (abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position), which imposes spot-up roles upon teammates (reduces their assists and increases their assisted rate) - these spot-up roles prevent teammate development, elite chemistry or strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding perennial underdogs, weak records and Finals losers regardless of cast.. fyi - zero young players grew from single-digits to meaningful producer on his watch because he imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).

Since Lebron lost as the favorite from 2009-2011, oddsmakers were scared of Lebron's repeated meltdowns and accordingly downplayed his team heading into the 2012 season..

this is also why they were underdog to baby Westbrick in the Finals - oddsmakers were scared from Lebron's constant losses as the favorite, so they made him an underdog to baby Westbrick instead of the towering favorite that a veteran super-team should be.. Lebron's weak chemistry and the resulting need for more help with all rosters is why his team has weak records and odds, such as being underdog to baby Westbrick or fossil Duncan.

Btw, the Lakers were swept in the 2011 Playoffs similar to the Lakers getting swept by the Nuggets last year - so they were headed downwards (just like the current Lakers

Lebron's skillset can't run the triangle, so Phil couldn't be the coach, or he would have to run something else that probably gets inferior results to four #1 offenses with goat margins above league-average

^^^ that's what the triangle yielded when it had a perimeter player to score 30-40 points on a perfect combination of chemistry-allowing jumpshots, post-ups, and FT's - high efficiency on each and almost no dribbling - aka the highest level of offensive skill required, aka advanced basketball.

The triangle had been around for a half century and hadn't won a single thing on the NBA level as a team's official offense until Jordan and his clone won 11 chips with it.. Some sources say that the 68' Sixers used aspects of it or the 70' Knicks, so maybe it won 2 titles until MJ and his clone won 11 and MJ winning the only 6 without a real frontcourt?

In 1990, did MJ get the GOAT coach, or did he get a 1st-time nobody coach?

Phil was a 1st-time nobody coach when MJ got him in 1990, while MJ was the goat candidate, not Phil.. Phil was the rookie coach with an offense that no one ever heard of.

So MJ made Phil, not the other way around... You're acting like the triangle was a magic potion but it was literally the opposite because it required goat peaks to win titles - i.e. prime MJ had to carry the heaviest scoring burden ever for it to win titles, or peak Shaq had to dominate more than anyone ever has.

That's what it took for the triangle to win - goat domination - goat peaks required for Phil to win, so it's time to take your head out of the sand

Btw, MJ's first playoff teams were Year 1 teams with no coach or roster, while Lebron's first playoff teams were Year 3 teams with future HOF Mike Brown, who proved in Sacramento that he can turn around any team, not just lebron's.. Lebron also had 3 years to develop a favored high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs, while MJ was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 as an 8 seed.

Kobe repeated with a 1x all-star - that's far better than anything Lebron has ever done or ever will do.. And yes, it was above expectation.

Otoh, the 2016 Cavs only won 57 games, which was a massive underachievement considering they were the preseason favorite and the only team with 3 franchise players compared to the Warriors' 1 franchise player..

So the Cavs had far more talent and the only reason they needed 7 games is because Lebron wet the bed for the first 4 (24 ppg and 6 TO's) just like he wet the bed in the 2013 Finals for the first 3 games (16 on 39%), which similarly required a goat teammate save.

Lebron, Kyrie and Love should've had towering favorites and 70-win teams but instead Bron-ball barely won 53 games and were perennial Finals underdogs or losers just like the Heat.

The projection here is beyond insane - you're literally making stuff up and I'm having to correct you with the historical facts and record.. You've been brainwashed and are literally incapable of accepting actual facts that show Lebron is overrated and not good at basketball compared to MJ, Kobe, Curry or Duncan - these guys all have more rings and consistently yielded better teams with less help.. Massive sample sizes show this.

You've been posting your same old cherry-picked bullshit for 10 years.

Literally the definition of mental illness. Like do you have any other hobbies man? Go to the gym perhaps? Or just touch some grass at least, anything.

DPOY VOTING

1988...... MJ (1st)........ Pip (none)
1989...... MJ (5th)........ Pip (none)
1990...... MJ (5th)........ Pip (none)
1991...... MJ (7th)........ Pip (7th)
1992...... MJ (3rd)........ Pip (3rd)
1993...... MJ (2nd)....... Pip (none)
1996...... MJ (5th)........ Pip (2nd)
1997...... MJ (5th)........ Pip (4th)
1998...... MJ (4th)........ Pip (9th)

Rookie Pippen was a horrible defender, so consider about how lucky he was to land alongside the only MVP/DPOY in history to improve his 2-way game - the best scenario possible..

Since Pippen wasn't good right away and needed a ton of development, the spot where he landed mattered.. It mattered that he landed next to a goat athlete so he could develop in his image, and also alongside a non-ball-dominator that didn't make him a spot-up shooter, and also on a bum team that wouldn't bury him on the bench.

Otherwise, no one would ever have heard of Pippen.

In 91' and 92', the Bulls had #1 offenses with goat margins above league-average ORTG, which makes them the best offenses ever.

These goat offenses declined to 10th and 14th in the league in 94' and 95', but then returned to goat offenses in 96' and 97' (MJ's first full seasons back).

Of course, the defense remained the same in 1994 (6th) compared to 91-93' (4th, 7th, 4th), so the massive drop from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round loser was due exclusively to the aforementioned catastrophic drop-off in offense - this was all due to the loss of MJ, the GOAT offensive player and the goat perimeter DPOY.

In contrast to Jordan's goat team offenses, Lebron hasn't had a #1 offense in 21 seasons.....

it's because he has a simpleton Luka-ball skillset and never developed expert jumpshooting skill to play off teammates..

When you say "great", you're talking about a level that was far higher than Lebron or Nash ever reached because Jordan had four #1 offenses with goat margins above league-average ORTG.. Jordan literally had the goat offenses.

Otoh, Lebron hasn't had a #1 offense in 21 years, let alone a goat offense that vastly exceeded league average..

So how many different lineups or years would it take for Lebron to have a #1 offense?... 30 years?.. 40?... How many years before you concede that his skillset simply isn't capable of having a #1 offense?

And how many all-star teammates would it take? Could he do it with just 1 all-star that had the worst efficiency/spacing in history even though Lebron's stiff-arm game needs spacing?.. Pippen had the worst shooting spits ever for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG - he did this twice and both were title runs (96', 98').

So how could Lebron do it with a non-spacer like Pippen when we know that his stiff-arm game NEEDS SPACING like Mo showed us in 2009 (45 to 66 wins)?... So Pippen is the last guy that Lebron could have a #1 offense with, while a non-offensive player like Rodman could never play in any Lebron lineup because bron needs more offensive help and can't have any duds out there.

You can't respond to it - you can't defend Lebron's inferior record, so you resort to this bullshit even though you've been following a game that you don't understand for decades and posting about it.. At least I have a good handle of what i'm talking about.. My **** makes sense and is accurate, while you're clearly shooting in the dark and then projecting onto me your crap

you simply can't defend Lebron's garbage record of mostly losing everywhere he's been and showing that he's incapable of a 3-peat, dynasty or perennial favorites with any lineup, aka objectively inferior to MJ, Kobe, Curry, Duncan, and more

Mental illness is tough, get help.

You apparently lack balls by hiding behind the mental health gimmick rather than defending your fraud and joke of a hero, a meltdown machine.. a child he is.. that's why you can't defend him and that's why you copy him by acting like a scared child... it's transparent and immature.. but carry on

LMAO you literally spend your life writing giant walls of text on multiple websites to hate on one athlete, literally textbook example of mental illness. Go touch some grass, seriously.

I have responded to your cherry-picked arguments plenty of times, and the bottom line is that I simply don't care about any of this to even 1% of the degree that you do.

LeBron is not even my favorite player, Curry actually is, I'm just not a delusional idiot who makes hating one player his whole personality and spends all his time bashing him on the internet.

Get help man. Until you admit you have a problem things will never get better.

I'm sure when the waters get a little rough, you guys meltdown and throw hissy-fit like Lebron - I conclude this because you don't knock him for his hissy-fits or meltdowns and think he's a man for his girly ways.. so I assume you guys are all weak like that in real life too and meltdown on the job all the time. lol

imagine a recreational player pontificating about the best poker players in the world and thinking they have a clue about intricacies or who the best players are and what makes a great player - that's how you guys are about basketball - no f'ing idea

carry on.. i'll come back periodically to correct dumb posts and misperceptions

Nvm.

Easily Post of the MONTH in all of SE right here.

Apparently when Lebron finally beat the Celtics in 2011, it was Wade that averaged 30 while Lebron averaged 28, and Wade led the Heat in scoring for those playoffs and Finals.

So imagine if Bird came along and led Jordan in scoring when he finally beat the Bad Boys in 91' - that would be absurd but that's how Lebron finally overcame his nemesis - Wade carried him against Boston... A 6'4" Jordan was 1st option over 2x MVP Lebron (peak Lebron)..

Maybe that's why Lebron was weirdly passive in the 2011 Finals - he knew the game flow was going Wade's way and he was the bigger threat and likely FMVP, so he sabotaged the series and pretended to "choke".. But in reality, he just didn't like the idea of Wade being officially recognized as superior... This is one of the better excuses for his choking and it isn't impossible because Klutch has a track record of being a wily organization..

Regardless, if you're inferior to Wade like Lebron was before Wade declined, than you're vastly inferior to Jordan.. Of course Jordan would've won with Lebron's 18/7/6 on 48% in the 2011 Finals since that's prime Pippen caliber (Pippen averaged 19/8/6 on 42% for his Finals career).

.
Jerry Krause:

"But I will say one thing for Michael Jordan to this day and forever:

He never came to me and asked for other players.

He never came to me and asked me to draft a player.

He never came to me and asked me to trade for a player.

Never once did that happen".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNN5e5Ew...

#fakedebate

#teamfallguy

He told Jerry Krause NOT to trade Pippen. So that is de facto choosing Pippen.

So not trading a player is in effect trading a player ???

#teamfallguy

Jordan begged to not have the Bulls trade Pippen for Kemp.

Begged like the gambling degenerate, teammate punching, basketball quitting, baseball failing dog he is.

fallguy/twog/whatever,

Do you have a YouTube or TikTok account? No one reads anything online anymore except weirdos and nerds, so if you want to truly own Lebronstans anywhere other than your own head (which I suspect is fairly well-populated), you gotta up your game and create videos. You can just be yourself - the internet loves crazy people videos a lot more than they love crazy people walls of text.

Your sense of humor is also embarrassing.