LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Here is poster “trainwreckog” agreeing with us that LeBron is better than MJ, LeBron’s elite playmaking facilitates high team assists and the best ball movement, and that the 40% “career” threshold for assisted fg% is meaningless and irrelevant. Therefore, we are all on the same page and the thread has been solved.

Thanks for clearing that up.

^^^ The funny thing about the bolded is that you offered that as extra - it wasn't needed

I was saying what Seadood was thinking in that moment based on recency bias, not what I was thinking personally.. He understood that in the moment as we were going back and forth, but it's been misconstrued since then by deflecting posters like you that lost the debate.

So to be clear, you cannot refute the doctrine anymore and actually agreed a long time ago when your attempt to crap on Kobe actually revealed that you understand and agree with the entire argument (reposted above).

Just to confirm, for those that do not have the intelligence to realize it on their own, that yes Shaq’s game allows teammates to get assists because he can catch the ball and score. But also, the above post proves mathematically that LeBron’s game also allows teammates to get assists, and combined with LeBron’s own assists and playmaking, leads to more overall team assists and ball movement than both Kobe and MJ (probably Shaq too, but I admittedly did not check that).

Those with a modicum of intelligence would realize on their own that Shaq being able to score assisted field goals does not preclude LeBron James from scoring assisted field goals AND creating his own assists, and it doesn’t alter the laws of basic arithmetic and addition that prove that the combined value of LeBron’s assisted field goals and assists creates more total team assists and elite ball movement than Kobe and MJ.

I don’t mean to insult everyone’s intelligence because I know the above is incredibly obvious, but I thought it best to explicitly type it out in case there was anyone reading that wasn’t capable of grasping it immediately.

I apologize fallguy, that was uncalled for. I know you’re trying really really hard. Please keep posting this is great.

^^^ That isn't the issue - all players increase or decrease a team's assists.

The issue is that Lebron causes low ceiling in team assists or low average ranking in team assists (lower-assist teams in general), just like all high-scoring primary ball-handlers (high scorers with low-assisted rates)..

Since 1997, there were 96 times that a player averaged 25+ with under 40% assisted rate in a season, and they averaged 18th in team assists and had top 5 assist teams 5 of 96 times (5%).... Otoh, players that averaged 25+ with over 50% assisted rate averaged 10th in assists and had a top 5 assist team 36 of 87 times (41%).

^^^ Lebron's number is mostly his own personal assists from dominating the ball... Otoh, the style of play that allows teammates to get assists allows a different brand of ball entirely, such as a ball movement system that increases everyone's assists and allows higher-assist teams in general (higher average ranking in team assists).

It's intuitive that the need of Lebron and every high-scoring primary ball-handler to dominate the distribution of assists and lower everyone's assists prevents the equitable systems that are characteristic of every dynasty and dominant champion in history...

It isn't coincidence or bad luck that Jokic, Curry, MJ, Duncan and players like this (highly-assisted players) produced all the great teams, while primary ball-handlers were never 1st option for the best basketball (dynasty or dominant champion)... It isn't just bad luck every single time... You guys are just liars and denying reality - it kills you to admit that you fell for a fraud.

Fallguy,
Everything you wrote above is wrong and it can be proven mathematically that it’s wrong with real historical NBA data. You don’t have to make up false narratives when we have real data. See below for the proof:

You know there is another hypothesis that great coaching combined with an elite scheme and roster construction leads to dominant playoff runs and dynasties. You don’t have to keep saying that LeBron creating more total team assists than MJ and Kobe prevents team assists. If you kept holding that opinion in the face of mathematical proof that it’s wrong that would make you look either stupid or insane and you don’t want that do you? Lmfao.

Lebron is low-assisted, so he literally doesn't allow teammates to assist him often.

What you did was simply sophistry... You calculated a meaningless stat that is mostly his own assists to avoid the reality that he doesn't allow teammates to assist him often, which prevents and equitable system of ball distribution.

But the reality remains that any high-scorer with his level of assisted rate (ball-dominator) produces a low ceiling in team assists, i.e. low average ranking in team assists (lower-assist teams in general).

The issue is that high-scoring primary ballhandlers or high scorers with low-assisted rates have a large volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around and prevents an equitable system of ball movement used by higher-assisted skillsets like bigs and jumpshooters (Duncan, Curry, Jokic, MJ, etc).. Lebron's skillset of requiring the ball in his hands prevents a system.

Hahahaha you’re actually still arguing that data which proves LeBron James contributes substantially more to team assists and elite ball movement than both Kobe and MJ prevents team assists. Can’t make this up. Good on you homie — embrace the insanity. Don’t ever give up. This thread wouldn’t be the same without you.

Yes because it's mostly his own personal assists, aka ball-domination, which prevents a system that increases teammates' assists... Every high-scoring ball-dominator in history requires the ball in their hands, which prevents a system and lowers teammates' assists..

By your logic, Westbrook contributes more to team assists, yet he produced low-assist teams for his whole career too.

So something is wrong with your numbers and their meaning.

Oh I know what it is... It's that the higher numbers for Westbrook and Lebron reflect mostly their own personal assists and ball-domination, since their skillset isn't assisted by teammates often.. Their style of ball-dominance kills ball movement and any chance of a system that increases everyone's assists

Just so we are clear: you are being serious when you argue that LeBron James’ 1.6% lower career average assisted field goal rate compared to Kobe Bryant is what is preventing his teams from achieving high assist totals? When LeBron James has vastly more assists himself? And LeBron mathematically contributes far more to total team assists?

1.6% fallguy. Can you do math? That comes out to like 0.1 field goals per game. You understand that right? And you want us to take this argument seriously? Lmfao. No seriously keep going this is great. I have side bets on what you’re going to say next.

Fallguy’s next 6 posts:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincib...

Since 1997, teammates of high-scoring ball-dominators saw their assists decrease, while teammates of highly-assisted 1st options saw their assists increase and have much higher-assist teams in general.

So there's no need for "evidence" - it's a simple fact that high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron hog the assists and crater their teammates' assists, which can be described to the layman as "turning teammates into spot-up shooter" and obviously preventing a "system" of equitable ball distribution.

So again, teams cannot have elite roster construction with high-scoring, primary ballhandlers, since they turn everyone into spot-up shooter.. Without the possibility of elite roster construction or chemistry, primary ball-handlers can't produce the best basketball as 1st option (dynasty or dominant champion).. Teams simply have lower ceilings with primary ball-handlers as 1st option, since they're never a dominant champion or dynasty (0 for 12)

Oh that’s been noted, trust me lolol. Sophistry indeed. I swear to god you can’t make this up.

It's more than 1.6%, but it's irrelevant because Lebron starts in the frontcourt and has the lowest assisted rate ever for a frontcourt player, by far... So he craters teammates' opportunity to assist compared to playing alongside other forwards, while Kobe's teammates have similar opportunity to assist him compared to other SG's because Kobe's assisted rate wasn't low for his position..

We're comparing a guy that starts at guard to a guy that starts at forward, yet the guard is still more assisted than the forward... So Kobe gives teammates FAR more opportunity to assist than Lebron, who craters teammates assist opportunity compared to playing alongside normal forwards.. But the bigger picture is that all high-scoring ball-dominators employ a style of hogging the assists that prevents a "system" of equitable distribution that every dynasty has.

If something is common knowledge, then there's no need for evidence to prove it.

The entirety of history shows that high-scoring ball-dominators hog the assists and crater their teammates' assists, which can be described to the layman as "turning teammates into spot-up shooter" and obviously preventing a "system" of equitable ball distribution.

So again, teams cannot have elite roster construction with high-scoring, primary ballhandlers, since they turn everyone into spot-up shooter.. Without the possibility of elite roster construction or chemistry, primary ball-handlers can't produce the best basketball as 1st option (dynasty or dominant champion).. Teams simply have lower ceilings with primary ball-handlers as 1st option, since they're never a dominant champion or dynasty (0 for 12)

So, just do we are clear, if LeBron started in the backcourt, playing point guard or point forward, and the coach built the proper offense and scheme around that, your argument would not apply at all, yes?

Approximately 0.1 field goals per game fallguy. That is the difference. You are arguing that a ~0.1 field goals per game difference, with far, far more assists contributed, prevents high team assists.

It’s time to go to bed bro. Start over tomorrow.

No.. Regardless of whether the player starts at point guard or not, the doctrine applies to all high-scoring, primary ball-handlers (low-assisted 1st options), since none of them produced the best basketball (dynasties and dominant champions)..

All high scorers that are low-assisted have high volume of unassisted buckets that lower teammates' assists, impose spot-up roles, and prevent "systems" of equitable ball distribution... This effect is just worse for Lebron because he brings the point guard style and low-assisted rates to the frontcourt, so teammates have less opportunity to assist him than normal forwards.. For this reason, Lebron's ball-dominance is the worst ball-dominance ever, and his worst-ever chemistry is why he needed the unprecedented help that he's received.

Accordingly, elite roster construction with a high-scoring, primary ballhandler is impossible because they turn everyone into spot-up shooter, which explains the mystery of why all of Lebron's teams need more help..

Again, players that averaged 25+ ppg and below 40% assisted rate in a season produced a top 5 assist team 5 of 96 times (5%) and averaged 18th in team assists - this isn't conducive for "systems" of equitable ball distribution... Otoh, players that averaged 25+ with above 50% assisted rate produced a top 5 assist team 36 of 87 times (41%) and averaged 10th in assists.

That may be the craziest thing I've ever heard.