LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Your "analysis" is nothing beyond jerking off over Jordan's ppg.

If LeBron scores 15 points while triple teamed but assists 25 times your narrative would be that LeBron was "carried" by whoever scored the points, rather than LeBron was making the right basketball play.

I talk about assists a lot like how MJ averaged more assists than Lebron in the playoffs.. It was only when Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone from 2015 onwards that Lebron started averaging more assists than MJ in the playoffs..

Otherwise MJ averaged more assists through half their chips (85-93' vs 06-14') - most people don't realize that MJ averaged 35/7/7 compared to Lebron's 28/8/6 during these time periods.

Overall, Lebron averages 1-2 more assists than MJ for their careers, but he never reached 11 apg in the Finals and doesn't have a 25-game stretch of 30/9/11, and of course he averaged less assists in the playoffs thru half their chips.. fwiw Jordan was a goat-passer because he could achieve elite assists without dominating the ball or bringing the ball up like Bird - only MJ averaged 10 assists in a series without bringing the ball up or being the primary ball-handler.

Most importantly, there's the ball movement issue and the fact that MJ creates more assists by having a higher assisted rate - he's an assist target that teammates can assist, while Lebron is a ball-dominator that teammates rarely assist.. Since Lebron puts downward pressure on teammates' assists (he hogs the assists), his teams are low-assist teams that have non-elite ball movement.. This inferior brand of ball is why he wins less with more (the common thread in his last 4 Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists).

But back to your point - if Lebron was a 15/25 guy, he would be closer to Stockton, but instead he's a 27/7/7 guy, so that's a lesser version of Jordan (33/6/6 with less turnovers and superior brand of ball that wins more with less)

Unbeatable?! They went 7 games against choke artist Harden & old CP. If CP doesn't get hurt, they easily could've lost the series.

Lebron thought they were unbeatable, though, for sure. Lost by record margin, in the finals, the next round.

You're forgetting 2-time all-star Dennis Rodman that Jordan "got" to team up with!

Who doesn't want to play with a 36 year old malcontent who flies out to cut WCW wrestling fights during the NBA finals?!? But hey, he had 6 rebounds the game before so I guess he earned it.

Any answers to these simple questions?

No need to apologise, you didn’t touch the sides.

But you’re right: saying MJ had “no chance” of being a continuous all - nba player if he’d had the determination to keep playing after the lockout is wrong, As is the assumption he could easily if he had played, Again, the reality is he didn’t have the stomach to play for a coach other than Phil; and when he put himself in on a min for the team HE built with the coach HE chose he wasn’t up to the standard LeBron is at this age. So the weight of probabilities rests on the idea he wouldn’t / didn’t have it anymore. And he probably knew that himself.

The end of the Last Dance is hilarious tbf. This notion that MJ wanted to continue all along and he was denied the opportunity by ownership and he held it to himself for two decades plus only to make a big reveal in his documentary, And people bought this crap? lol

U think Lebron , with that team he played with to 66 wins, would had the same success in the west ?

lol to u for your pure speculation and thinking mj wouldn’t love to at least have a try to a 4 peat with the team he had …..

The bulls made the stupidest decision ever by a sport team breaking a championship by pure ego .
It ain’t mj ….

Stay on what’s factual .

Luka just turned 25.

Luka is a 4 time All-NBA 1st team member and been to the conference Finals while beating a 64 win team.

At the same age MJ had a grand total of 1 playoff win.

Luka is pacing fine.

Just because he has equity, doesn't mean he's guaranteed to get there. But to say he has zero equity is just stupid.

+1

Without pippen Jordan is a ncaa champion , Olympic champion , what did pippen ever won without mj ?
Jordan was 1-9 without Grant too .
And why u use all games played and not series results ?
0-3 ?
I’m not sure you want to start calculating like that ….

Playoff result Lebron 172W-102L -> .628
Miss playoffs 4times.
Series (41-12) -> .773

MJ. 118W-60L -> .663
Miss playoffs 2times
Series (30-7) -> .811

Grant was there in 94 and what happened when he left pippen in 95 ?
Barely break even ….until rusty mj came back.

By your logic , Seem Grant was better , without mj he did far better then pippen , even 1 ring more .

FWIW mj still played all 82 games in his last season on a bad knee and he played injured the year prior .

I think he had fire to do those things .
Especially compare to player today …

http://nobodytouchesjordan.blogspot.com/...

But most importantly

We don’t know…
Maybe he wouldn’t play as long but might have accomplished even more with more years in aka 94-95 and 98 .

When he join the nba he was already a top 5 players in the league all nba second team and 6 in mvp race ….

Probably not 18 but surely before he did and it’s ok to aim at an education for couple years btw.

Today u can join the nba and be instant multi millionaire even if u fail while being young .
It ain’t the same time .

What do you think it says about you that you can't figure this out? The east had a winning record against the west in 08-09, led by the Cavs who had the best record against the West in the entire NBA at 26-4, but let's forget about that inconvenient fact for now and assume counterfactually that the west was historically strong relative to the east that year. Maybe the average team in the west was expected to win 60% of the time against the average team in the east. What do you think 66-16 in the east would roughly translate to in the west?

Without spoiling the fun (you can ballpark this quite easily, but it's a fair amount of work to get to more precise estimates), even if you assume an implausibly large inter-conference gap (60% in terms of true expected winning percentage in inter-conference games probably hasn't ever happened), the expected change in record by moving from one conference to the other is very low.

Of course this isn't the only instance - your entire posting history betrays some cognitive deficit to put it mildly. Have you always been this bad at, well, everything that requires any kind of thinking or perhaps is the problem that your cognitive function is declining much faster than your self-awareness can keep up with?

lmao so is Carmello Anthony.
This is your argument?

I mean that overrated lazy pig did get out of the first round twice in his NBA career so that's something I guess.

MJ could've been ball-dominant or averaged 5-10 points less like Lebron or Magic in order to average 10+ assists, which would've ranked him as an all-time great passer.

You might counter by saying that Lebron or Magic could've averaged less assists so they could score more, but the problem is that no one in history did that - MJ averaged 5 more points than everyone in playoff history.. If there was someone out there in the annals of history that could score like MJ, it would've happened.

The idea that a player can just shoot as much as MJ to score as much as MJ assumes that everyone has the same scoring ability (like my grandmother could match MJ's scoring if she got the same shot attempts).. This is more true of passing.. A player that wants to average more assists can shoot less and make simple passes without having the disastrous results that occur when a bad scorer tries to score more.. Of course no one can average the assists that Magic did but they'll have more success trying then trying to be like MJ.. Intuitively, it's easier to make a chest pass than a jumpshot, layup or FT, so the correlation of "more attempts = higher average" is more true of passing.. Guys who can't score like to say they're good passers (or defenders).. The next time someone says "i like to pass" or "i play really good defense", this means "i can't shoot for ****" - so you don't want that guy shooting more but passing and defense is okay for them to undertake.

Btw, Lebron and Magic tried to score like MJ a few times and had disastrous results - they were too ball-dominant at the high-scoring or carry-job volume.. Specifically, Magic tried to average 30 in the 90' WCSF and his 1-seeded Lakers were massively-upset by KJ's Suns.. Similarly, Lebron was historically-upset in the 09' ECF when he tried to put up an MJ number, and he also never beat top 5 SRS or Finals team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick (can't win with scoring vs top teams).. So this idea that Lebron could've shot as much as MJ is wrong due to lesser scoring ability than MJ, while his ball-dominance at that shot volume yielded historic upsets (so when he tried to score like MJ, he lost his ass).

In contrast to Lebron and Magic failing to win with high-scoring, MJ won 6 chips by averaging 33.5 for his playoff career or 33.6 for his Finals career, including many series victories with 35-45 ppg - only MJ has this record of winning with high scoring - no one else is remotely close -only Jordan won as usage or scoring champ (except 2000 shaq and 71' Kareem - so their peak burden was Mj's standard burden).. Again, I say all this to nullify the "more attempts = higher average" narrative - this applies more to passing than scoring, and only MJ ever scored that much or consistently won while scoring that much, so if someone could've scored like he did, it would've happened.

Mj is superior to Lebron at offensive rebounds and superior inch-per-inch and pound-for-pound at the positionally-correlated defensive rebounds

MJ averaged 41/9/6 in the 93' Finals and co-led the Bulls in rebounds for the 97' Playoffs along with Rodman - both averaged 8 RPG for that run, so the fact that MJ could get Rodman-level rebounds for an entire playoff run and co-lead the team says it all., One of the reasons MJ is superior to Lebron was his aggressiveness and this shows in his superior inch-per-inch rebounding ability.

Here's the reality about "bully-ball"... A 2 inch height advantage isn't enough to bully-ball continuously unless the defender is a complete lightweight and weakling

So the idea that lebron will bully-ball or stiff arm Jordan 11 straight times is absurd.. Lebron will do it a few times and then invariably fumble and stumble.. Once jordan gets the ball, he will score 11 straight.

If somehow Lebron gets a stop and the game is tight down the stretch, empirical evidence shows that lebron has never scored on the last possession of a 1-possesson game in the Finals (0-7), and this would be the Finals of all Finals - so I don't anticipate him scoring here either.. Jordan would rip him with the game on the line - I can see that clear as day.. Then the winner that ensues is probably a turnaround but it could be a pull-up going either way - a bevy of go-to moves to chose from, while Lebron has none so he can't score continuously unless he gets 11 straight via stiff-arm against "the strongest guard to ever play" according to Magic.

Yeesh man, I think it’s much simpler than all those walls of texts. LeBron is the better rebounder and passer, and he’d be favoured in a hypothetical 1 on 1. You can’t even give the obvious things to LeBron, talk about qualities he has with any positivity. Robs you of any credibility imo.

So Micheal Jordan wanted to play in 1999 but was some sort of good soldier and quietly announced his second retirement without any opposition to the Bull’s plan, no leaks through media people, no demand of a trade?

Seriously the cognitive dissonance is astounding. The documentary is 9.75 parts of Jordan being the ultimate dominator over everyone and every situation; and then coming off a 3 peat MVP season where he wants to play on he does nothing to advocate for it? And just holds the “truth” of him wanting to continue but it being scuppered by ownership for years to reveal at the end of his doc? And people bought this nonsense?

.
2009 MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48...,,.. #3 team defense
1990 PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48..... #19 team defense

^^^ 09' Cavs superior on both sides of the ball than the 90' Bulls

In addition to being superior to the 1990 Bulls on both sides of the ball, the 09' Cavs were also a Year 6 team under Lebron - it's always been standard for all-timers like Giannis, Curry, Jokic, Jordan or Lebron to have organic juggernauts by Year 6 or 7 with ordinary casts (a first-time all-star teammate).. Of course Lebron was historically-upset with his organic juggernaut, which is similar to Giannis or Jokic in previous years.

So it means literally nothing that Lebron won 66 games, except that he was upset with such a team, which is similar to Dirk being massively-upset with his 67-win organic juggernaut and weak cast in 2007.

What do rebounding and passing have to do with 1-on-1?

Lebron is a massive bricklayer, choker, beta and slow snail compared to Jordan, so he would get destroyed in 1-on-1

And Jordan was a better offensive rebounder (averaged more oreb) and better defensive rebounder given his height disadvantage - he wasn't an ordinary rebounder because he had Rodman-level rebounds for an entire playoff run as they co-led the rebounding for the 97' Playoffs - examples like this along with his solid rebounding average make him a superior rebounder to Lebron given his height

Regarding Lebron's passing - he's a dumb ball-dominator and therefore a simple, predictable passer that never yielded a #1 offense, dynasty, perennial favorite or winning Finals record.. So Jordan was a far smarter passer that could get the same assist levels without dominating the ball or having high turnovers, while being a better passer with more APG the times that he actually decided to play the simpleton, inferior brand of ball-domination

Are you saying that a player that just dominated more than anyone ever has in the 93' or 98' Finals wasn't physically or mentally CAPABLE of continuing after those seasons?.. So he literally could not continue?... Or did he simply have the luxury of retiring (from goat winning) and took that option rather than build another dynasty from scratch starting at 35 years old?.. Seems quite obvious that he took the luxury option of retiring on top rather than quitting because he couldn't physically continue - it's absurd to think he wasn't physically or mentally capable of continuing - like he literally couldn't get out there... bs obviously - he simply had the luxury option to retire due to goat winning, so he took it.

Confirmed itt courtesy LuckyLloyd - MJ was superior scorer and defender as needed to win 1-on-1

And Jordan was a 30/10/10 point guard 30 years before the 30/10/10 era - so he could play Lebron-ball 30 years before Lebron, but his passing superiority actually lies in his ability to get similar assist levels or even elite assists without devolving into simpleton Luka/Lebron-ball and ball-dominance.. Bird or Jordan could get quicker and harder assists that don't use ball-dominance while Lebron must dominate the ball and take forever to get slower, and more basic hoops instinct, simpleton assists - the plodding, beginner like ball-dominance from a frontcourt player actually yields low TEAM assists (hogs the assists and turns the PG into spot-up role) and a low ball movement brand that is perennial underdog & loser on championship level.

And no coach ever wanted their SG or SF to get 10 rebs and steal boards from bigs, so it's irrelevant except to note that MJ was superior offensive rebounder (averaged more orebs), while Lebron might be the worst offensive rebounder ever for his size.

To summarize, Jordan was a better scorer, defender, clutch player, offensive rebounder, and yes - a better passer - he could get 30/10/10 via ball-dominance or 10 assists without it, aka harder/smarter/quicker assists than Lebron is capable.

/thread

I can't picture the amount of delusion required to write that Jordan was a better passer than LeBron James.

Lock the thread up. The Jordan worshippers have shown that they are incapable of conceding that their hero was possibly inferior at ANYTHING.

That's not how the real world works. At that point you've simply created the Church of Micheal Jordan and don't live in reality anymore. What's next, Jordan could have shot the ball as well as Stephen Curry? Perhaps Jordan was a better defender than Hakeem Olajuwon?