LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
meh, you got LeBron fans saying he's a better scorer than MJ, because 40k yo.
We know Jordan was the original Westbrook.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/1989/04/09/...
Statistics are just supposed to be there, to be appreciated after the fact. For all the scoreboards in NBA arenas, most players don’t learn about their numbers until they are handed a box score in the locker room. That often is when most interviews stop, and the studying begins.
That’s fine. That’s the time. That’s the place.
And that’s what makes this whole Michael Jordan triple-double thing silly.
Simply, he is above it all, no matter what he thinks.
Since moving to point guard 16 games ago, Jordan has recorded eight triple-doubles, including a streak of seven in a row that was snapped Friday night against Detroit. He has 11 for the season.
Since Jordan’s move from off-guard, the Bulls have gone 11-5. That, in itself, should be reward enough.
But even Jordan has been caught in triple-double-mania.
During breaks in games, Jordan has been wandering over to the scorer’s table to get updates on how many rebounds, assists and points he needs to fill his three double-figure quotas.
“The guys at the scorer’s desk let me know what I need,” he said. “They tell me, ‘You need three assists; you need two rebounds.”‘
Jordan also has been double-checking the figures with Chicago assistants.
“They keep me in tune,” he said. “They keep reminding me when I come back to the huddle, how much I need.”
Last Sunday, at home against New Jersey, the 10th assist was Jordan’s final goal.
“I knew I had nine assists,” he said, “and I looked at (forward) Brad (Sellers), and said, ‘Brad, can I count on you for my 10th?’ And he said, ‘yeah’ and hit a jumper from the baseline.”
The push for the elusive triple-double is part of Jordan’s push for greater respect.
“If the way I’m playing now doesn’t convince them I’m a complete player,” he said, “then nothing will.”
Btw, I'm guessing that the Jordan-stans in this thread genuinely don't understand why this is bad in the first place, right?
I can't picture the amount of delusion required to write that Jordan was a better passer than LeBron James.
Are you saying that having MJ > Lebron in terms of passing is similar to having Lebron > MJ in terms of scoring? Why do you think it's absurd to have MJ > Lebron in the first place?
I can't think of a single thing MJ does better than Lebron in terms of passing. Lebron is far better in terms of court vision (fewer missed opportunities), delivers better passes, is capable of making more difficult passes and also is far better at directing his teammates to create passing opportunities. Lebron's versatility might be unmatched - he can play at a high level as a playmaking big or a traditional point guard.
Meanwhile, in terms of scoring, Lebron is also better in just about every single way near the rim (as a cutter or a rim-running big and also better as a slasher). Lebron is also a far better 3-point shooter and a better overall transition scorer. MJ is better in the mid-range and from the free-throw line. So while this isn't like passing where Lebron simply dominates across the board, Lebron is better at the more important aspects. If you described MJ's skill set and Lebron's skill set as it relates to scoring in detail to a basketball GM in an alternate universe where they didn't get to see these two play, I don't think anyone would consider MJ the superior scorer. In fact, you could easily make an argument for Lebron as the best overall scorer in the history of the game from a pure ability perspective. His combination of size, athleticism, skill and overall versatility is unmatched and allows him to score efficiently in just about any situation. MJ is probably around 10th or so (he's a much better passer than most players that are ahead of him in terms of scoring ability though).
Lebron also has a slight edge in aggregate stats. Lebron's added more value above average (TS Add of 2913 vs 1943) through largely superior efficiency (Career TS+ of 108 vs 106, despite far more pre-peak and post-peak years). In fact Lebron's top 5 in terms of TS+ are: 120, 120, 115, 112, 112. MJ's top 5 are 114, 113, 113, 112, 109. That's a fairly sizable and consistent gap. Now, Lebron's not as dominant statistically as his skill set advantage would suggest, but then again, if you consider their role, it makes sense. Lebron's pretty much never played in a system where he could just look to score, whereas MJ has played pretty much that exact role his entire career. If Lebron was only as good at passing and defense as MJ was and was encouraged to just go all-out as a scorer his whole career, his stats would have been even more comical in his prime, though he would've had less overall impact.
Purely as a scorer I'd have Durant over LeBron, LeBron pulls far ahead when you consider playmaking and defensive versatility.
Jordan being a better passer than LeBron is an all-time bad take. Watch some old Chicago Bulls games and you'll frequently see Jordan trying to hero-ball and missing open teammates. His decision making and passing arsenal isn't on LeBron's level.
It might never be done again. LeBron started out of high school and has mostly been remarkably healthy, only with injuries piling up in the last couple of seasons.
Jokic has the right skillset, but started too late and won't come close to those career totals. Luka has a small chance.
Are you saying that having MJ > Lebron in terms of passing is similar to having Lebron > MJ in terms of scoring? Why do you think it's absurd to have MJ > Lebron in the first place?
I can't think of a single thing MJ does better than Lebron in terms of passing. Lebron is far better in terms of court vision (fewer missed opportunities), delivers better passes, is capable of making more difficult passes and also is far better at directing his teammates to create passing opportunities. Lebron's v
case and point
Well i learn today Stockton is the goat point guard because of the stats and longevity he did and the incredible durability he had (16 times he played 82 games!) .
Better then big O
Magic
IT
Winning is just secondary .
Accomplishment vs his peers is meaningless .
Ho yes and this is the toughest era for offensive prowess .
There is no way many players of the past would even be better in today era (MJ and bird just naming a few ..).
Ps: Btw Lebron is such a great passer and strategist that’s why he got like the highest turnovers in the nba ( 900 more then Stockton for example ) while having less then 5k assist to Stockton .
Now that’s impressive .
lmao so is Carmello Anthony.
This is your argument?
I mean that overrated lazy pig did get out of the first round twice in his NBA career so that's something I guess.
The argument is mj couldn’t win without pippen .
So why he always did win everywhere else ?
Why couldn’t pippen win without mj anywhere else ?
Once mj out of pippen life , his stats just went straight down …
Even Horace grant was able to win one ring without mj .
Even made to the final in 95 beating pippen.
When all is said and done, Lebron will have 45k+ pts.
When this thread started ~11 years ago, if someone had told us LeBron would have crossed 40k I’d have pictured it as a Vince Carter esque 43 hanging around the league like a bad smell padding stats.
Not 39 year old All - NBA still the best player on his team. Been a wild ride.
45k? It looks possible. We just don’t know yet whether he’ll sign up for additional years where he isn’t the man on a team. Could be one or two more seasons and he’s done, that’s what I expect at this point.
The argument is mj couldn’t win without pippen .
So why he always did win everywhere else ?
Why couldn’t pippen win without mj anywhere else ?
What on earth are you babbling about? MJ never won anything without Pippen and we already did this analysis:
Just so that we keep the record straight, Lebron & ring factor analysis:
Dwyane Wade
Rings without Lebron: 1
Lebron rings without Wade: 2
Chris Bosh
Rings without Lebron: 0
Lebron rings without Bosh: 2
Spoelstra
Rings without Lebron: 0
Lebron Rings without Spo: 2
Kevin Love
Rings without Lebron: 0
Lebron Rings without Love: 3
Kyrie Irving
Rings without Lebron: 0
Lebron Rings without Kyrie: 3
Ty Lue
Rings without Lebron: 0
Lebron Rings without Ty Lue: 3
Anthony Davis
Rings without Lebron: 0
Lebron Rings without AD: 3
If you extend this beyond championships, MJ's case looks even worse. For example:
Playoff Series Wins
MJ without Pippen: 0
Pippen without MJ: 3
Clearly, Pippen had more success without MJ than MJ did without Pippen. And no one is arguing that this means Pippen > MJ, it's more that it's absurd to attribute championships or playoff success to a single individual without understanding other factors.
And the biggest factor here is coaching - it's very difficult to win multiple championships and if you look at dynasty-type runs, coaching is usually a big part of the success. Lebron's impact here is undeniable - every single player he's played with talks about how Lebron is essentially another coach and he's directing players and breaking down plays, on the court, during timeouts and in the film room. On the other hand, MJ's career prior to Phil Jackson (both his on-court performance and his interviews) strongly suggests that he didn't really understand what it takes to win and needed high-level coaching, not just for his teammates but for himself to play winning basketball.
Well i learn today Stockton is the goat point guard because of the stats and longevity he did and the incredible durability he had (16 times he played 82 games!) .
Better then big O
Magic
IT
Winning is just secondary .
Accomplishment vs his peers is meaningless .
Ho yes and this is the toughest era for offensive prowess .
There is no way many players of the past would even be better in today era (MJ and bird just naming a few ..)
Ps: Btw Lebron is such a great passer and strategist that’s why he got li
How can you be this clueless in every single way? Passing is more than just assists, being a great point guard takes more than just passing, you can turn over the ball doing things other than passing, assists don't adjust for 3-point shots and being risk-averse wrt turnovers doesn't necessarily maximize offense.
Most crucially, we can track efficiency on shooting to see how volume translates to positive offense but there are no box stats that track passing efficiency. When you look at tape to analyze this, most analysts conclude that Magic, Nash & Lebron are all ahead of Stockton as passers, even though Stockton has the highest assist rate in NBA history.
I really don't understand why you continue to embarrass yourself - is it really not obvious to you that you have absolutely no useful thought on this matter? Average 9-year olds are far more lucid than you are.
What on earth are you babbling about? MJ never won anything without Pippen and we already did this analysis:
If you extend this beyond championships, MJ's case looks even worse. For example:
Playoff Series Wins
MJ without Pippen: 0
Pippen without MJ: 3
Clearly, Pippen had more success without MJ than MJ did without Pippen. And no one is arguing that this means Pippen > MJ, it's more that it's absurd to attribute championships or playoff success to a single individual without understanding other fa
And it's confirmed by his Washington stint, where he couldn't build an effective roster across multiple years even with the luxuries of choosing a coach and adding himself on a minimum deal.
When I watch highlights, MJ looks like he's the best player ever.
Eye test>382 pages of this thread.
The goat!!! Lmao
Rings as the best player
Russell won a bunch of chips as 5th option averaging 12 ppg
Since the ABA merger or since the inception of 3-pointer basketball (modern era), Jordan has the most rings as the best player and arguably twice as many as anyone else (it can be easily argued that Duncan and Lebron were the best player on only 3 of their chips).
When this thread started ~11 years ago, if someone had told us LeBron would have crossed 40k I’d have pictured it as a Vince Carter esque 43 hanging around the league like a bad smell padding stats.
Not 39 year old All - NBA still the best player on his team. Been a wild ride.
45k? It looks possible. We just don’t know yet whether he’ll sign up for additional years where he isn’t the man on a team. Could be one or two more seasons and he’s done, that’s what I e
That’s the point isn’t?
Anyone thinking at that time LeBron was already the goat should be discarded.
Rings as the best player
Russell won a bunch of chips as 5th option averaging 12 ppg
Since the ABA merger or since the inception of 3-pointer basketball (modern era), Jordan has the most rings as the best player and arguably twice as many as anyone else (it can be easily argued that Duncan and Lebron were the best player on only 3 of their chips).
Fallguy sorting by ppg when evaluating the most impactful defensive player of all-time. [emoji1751][emoji1751][emoji1751]
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Too many nick wright in this thread …
