LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
So I'm team Lebron in this "fight" but it is mental that he would show up to a Lakers game in a Liverpool shirt
You were off by 25%. It's ok to be wrong, but you keep trying to defend yourself saying you were close instead of admitting you used the wrong numbers and were off.
I think 25% is also roughly the difference between your self-perceived IQ and actual IQ.
lol I’m off by 25% ?
Yes if u think my original quick approximation = 100% of all game played by lebron lol which obviously isn’t but only on game miss total shrug .
Man …..
The reality is instead of missing 20% it’s 16% of games miss from 2012 by Lebron and that is 4% on a real 100% real basis of all game played …not 25% !
And I did that because I knew the little difference wouldn’t be that much important with so many seasons into the equation .
But ok even if I said it before I was off by a little .
If that makes u happy but in the end it doesn’t a change a damn thing on the argument
Anyway moving on …
And thx for the constant insult while I didn’t once .
I see u and candy bar are great partners .
U want real talk and yet can’t accept the fact that Lebron at the age of mj retirement missed a ton of games and keep trying to derail that fact .
The main point is mj would easily achieve all nba past 35 if he had so much rest in regular season too (by missing 26% of games !)
Just look at his return where he played much older while injured on top of that ….
That’s facts !
What's 20 divided by 16?
Do we need to go back to 2nd grade math?
You cherry picked arbitrary cut-off points to try to make your point and still failed miserably because your numbers were way off (3 shortened seasons + the current partial season).
For his entire career, LeBron has actually played in 1759 games, out of a possible 1950.
Do the math on that, it's actually 90%.
What was your point again? That he misses 20% of games? You wanna try again?
Yes, for the majority of this thread you are wrong.
Jordan was shoe horned (Reinsdorf owned the team) into a MLB position to mess around and he sucked at it relatively.
Sorry that doesn't compare at all with playing in the NBA at an elite level.
Doesn’t matter if he sucked at it or not !
The point is he was not on vacation like u claim , he worked very hard and everyone that played with him said so …..
Ps: coaches said taking into consideration that mj didn’t play that much baseball but seeing what he did in such few time in baseball and his work ethic , many said he would of probably reached the mlb …
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/jerry...
Consider Bob Nightengale's latest piece for USA Today, in which he talked about Jordan's baseball days with Jerry Reinsdorf, the owner of the Bulls and the Chicago White Sox. (Jordan, of course, played a minor-league season with the White Sox during his basketball sabbatical.) You can add Reinsdorf to the list people who think Jordan could have made it to the majors if he had stuck with the game a season longer.
"Yes, I really do (think so),'' Reinsdorf said to Nightengale. "Maybe as an extra outfielder. Look at what he accomplished.
This sentiment shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Back in May, we talked to some of Jordan's former teammates with the Birmingham Barons. They too believed he could've reached the majors in some capacity thanks to his athleticism and work ethic.
Being with him on a daily basis for six months, and knowing how much work he was putting into it," reliever Barry Johnson said, "I don't think it's that big of a stretch to see him in a big-league uniform."
Even Jordan's biggest detractors conceded that it was possible he would play in the majors.
"Michael can't really play baseball, but he's not terrible," former big-league catcher John Stearns told an Arizona paper in 1994. "He doesn't have power. His defense is way below average. He can't throw. His baseball instincts are poor. But he can run a little bit and can hit a little bit. Considering he's never played baseball all these years, it's incredible that he's able to hold his own here. He's not a prospect for me. But he may play in the big leagues. You may take him as a 25th guy. Why not?"
Just stop denigrating a 1 per generation athlete on stupid narrative .
Mj wasn’t on vacation…
What's 20 divided by 16?
Do we need to go back to 2nd grade math?
You cherry picked arbitrary cut-off points to try to make your point and still failed miserably because your numbers were way off (3 shortened seasons + the current partial season).
For his entire career, LeBron has actually played in 1759 games, out of a possible 1950.
Do the math on that, it's actually 90%.
What was your point again? That he misses 20% of games? You wanna try again?
Again is the games miss by LeBron is an entire representation of his games to equate 100% ?
In poker having a backdoor flush draw can increase a 3 out hand from the flop by 25% compare to a hand with 3 outs without a backdoor flush draw .
Those that mean my hand with a backdoor flush draw has 25% more equity on the flop as a whole ?
No it got 4% more equity ….
But its ok , keep pounding on a useless points .
It’s ok ….
Regardless, I’m focusing from the age of retirement of mj age…
Trying to argue that 20% of a metric isn't 25% more than 16% of that metric is real next level stuff.
Yeah in poker if you had 16% equity and then you have 20% your equity did increase by 4% in absolute terms, 25% more relative to what you had before.
4% as an increase over 16% is 25%, congrats, now you're getting it.
That's your margin of error.
Lebron isn't clutch compared to MJ based on his many historic chokes such as 7 turnovers in the 4th quarter of critical Game 4 that swung the 2009 ECF, while also losing 3 fourth quarter leads in that series and getting upset by an injured, 1-star team.. It's impossible to win a close series if the star turns into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time (last 5 within 5)..
In addition to this 2009 choke, Lebron had a historic meltdown in the 2010 ECSF as the favorite (21 on 34% for the last
^^^ History shows that Lebron isn't clutch compared to Jordan and is infact a massive choker compared to Jordan
History shows that you're full of ****.
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2009 MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48...,,.. #3 team defense
1990 PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48..... #19 team defense
^^^ 09' Cavs were superior on both sides of the ball than the 90' Bulls
So people act like the early Cavs teams were bad but they were far better than the early Bulls teams.. Lebron had 3 years to develop a high seed before entering his first playoffs in 06' - this pads his early playoff record compared to MJ, who was thrown into the playoffs right away as an 8 seed vs dynasties.. It would be like Lebron's 05' Cavs facing the 17' Warriors.. MJ's first playoff teams had no cast, while Lebron's first playoff team was a Year 3 team that had the East all-star center, while also acquiring a HOF coach and 22/5/5 all-defender.
Giannis, Jokic, Curry, MJ, and Lebron all had organic juggernauts by Year 7 without much all-star help - the difference is that Lebron gave up on the organic learning curve after Year 7 and teamed up with opposing franchise players thereafter (all-star team strategy).. He never learned to win via chemistry, so he always needs more help.. He never learned how to mitigate his flaws (ball-dominance) and still develop great chemistry, whereas MJ learned how to have great chemistry despite his perceived flaws/high volume.. MJ learned how to have great chemistry and win with chemistry, thereby needing less help.. Accordingly, he's superior at basketball than Lebron, whose skillset and ability needs more help and still can't reach the team caliber that MJ did despite having more help.
More copy paste.
You're the one that claims Lebron plays 5 positions when he can't fit with Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, IT or other ball-handlers the way big men or PF's do, and of course he can't run off-screens or guard guys off screens like Klay, so he can't play or defend the off-guard (2 guard).
You're the one that claims Lebron "carries" weak help and bed-wetting teammates but he never beat a top 5 SRS or Finals team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick (zero carry-jobs vs top teams in 2 decades - he never carried bed-wetting teammates over top teams)
You're the one that claims Lebron is "clutch" except he has more historic chokes than anyone in history - this includes losing as one of the 10 biggest favorites to ever lose a playoff series (09' ECF), or the 2010 meltdown or 2011 goat choke.. He shoots 37% on the last possession of 1-possession games in the playoffs and 0% in the Finals - the massive gap between his normal efficiency and clutch efficiency confirms his massive choke factor.
You're the one that claims Lebron has "genius IQ" except he has a massive track record of bad fits with many teammates or many teammates playing far below capacity alongside him (far below career highs), and zero young player development in 20 years (zero low-producing rookies grew into meaningful producers alongside him) - he can't play off teammates and the resulting ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.. He also has a massive trend of getting upset or blown away by superior brands of ball such as the 09' ECF, 11' Finals, 14' Finals, 17' Finals, or 23' WCF - that's 5 upsets or blowouts by superior brands of ball.. So he's just a simpleton ball-dominator and you mistake this for "genius".
You're the one that claims that Lebron deserves respect for 8 straight Finals except history shows that this streak didn't begin until he took the top 3 first options in the conference and put them on 1 team (the "decision").. History also shows that Kryie played 12 of 14 games in the 15' East Playoffs, while Love was the only perennial all-star sidekick in the 18' East, so the only time that Lebron took a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it (Iverson, Kidd, Dwight)
You're the one who claims LeBron is worse than Durant. No one needs to take anything you write seriously.
D'Angelo Russell is a better scorer, passer and clutch player than Pippen, while AD is a superior defender and offensive player than Pippen - Jordan would win 70 games and the title every year with this cast, yet Lebron was swept in 2023 and is barely over .500 this year
Age isn't an excuse because Lebron had similar underachievement with other casts such as 1 sixty-win season with super-teams from 2011-2017 (and perennial underdog status in the Finals), or 5 seasons with 2 all-star teammates (only 2 titles in those years), or preseason favorites for 7 years (2011-2016 and 2021) but only 4 titles in those years.. There were upset losses, 4-0 sweep losses, record losses, 1st Round losses, 2nd Round loss, lottery or getting locked up in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022, and 2023
so basically every year of his career was crappy or outright embarrassing.
Dlo is garbage and no Jordan would not win 70 games with the Lakers roster
You slander Pippen constantly to boost Jordan
It's the same old schtick.
Jordan carried a roster of bums, yet somehow they still won when Jordan had his worst series and shot 42% for the series.
Make it make sense.
Trying to argue that 20% of a metric isn't 25% more than 16% of that metric is real next level stuff.
Yeah in poker if you had 16% equity and then you have 20% your equity did increase by 4% in absolute terms, 25% more relative to what you had before.
Of course and calling one hand over the other in value is a 4% mistake not a 25% ffs …
If me and bottom run an exam he gets 16 wrong on 100 and I got 20 wrong on 100 it would be incredibly stupid to say he beats me by 25% …
Especially on something I did on the fly just to make a general point
Anyway all this focusing just to try to burry the real point on how really Lebron miss so much regular season game past 34 and still call him an amazing steal man …..
https://fadeawayworld.net/numbers-of-pla...
Michael Jordan is one of those players from the “old school” era that made it a habit to play in every game. Jordan played in all 82 games nine times and didn’t miss a game from March 1995 to June 1998. Even at 40 years old, Jordan played all 82 games and played nearly 37 minutes a night. The all-time leader in assists, John Stockton, played in 82 games 16 times in his career. These superstars headlined the 80s and 90s. It might feel like that time was not far back, but we are pushing 30 years from that time. The game is changing whether you like it or not.
It’s like for couple of years the average is like 10 players in the entire nba that plays all games ….
Weak sauce era
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/12...
The average all-star in 2003 played in 79.2 games per season. 20 years later in 2023 the average all-star plays in 64.4 games per season.
The percentage argument in this thread might be my favorite yet.
So why are you replying? Let it die.
I’m glad u think u beat someone by 25% when u have an exam of 84% while the other scored 80% shrug .
And it makes a lot of sense now you think LeBron his made of steal to me .
You try to change the topic every time you say something idiotic and get shut down. It's hilarious. How do you manage any kind of real life relationship with that level of stubbornness?
