LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Due to injury, otherwise he would've made it over baby Nash in 02' if he didn't get hurt and finished the season at the 4-5 seed while being 1 of 3 guys getting 25/5/5 (and versus max defensive attention, aka no good teammates).. probably could've made it over Payton or even young Pierce

Bird, Oscar and Magic have better goat arguments based on rebounding/passing than Lebron, so rebounding/passing are inferior goat arguments than scoring, since MJ is the consensus goat scorer..

Again, no one could touch MJ's goat scoring, so it's a better argument than Lebron's non-goat rebounding and passing, especially since everyone knows that scoring is the most important category (whether you want to admit it or not)...

Scoring has a higher correlation with being a good player than rebounding, passing or TS.. the TS leader is often a bum but the scoring leader is usually one of the best in the league, if not the best

Of course in addition to the goat scoring, Mj was the superior offensive rebounder and better assist guy as a ball-dominator (30/9/11) or non-ball-dominator, while also being the best defender ever at his position... So the rebounding and passing arguments AREN'T EVEN VALID, but fail even if they were lol (even if Lebron is a such a vastly superior rebounder/passer, the argument fails because Bird/Oscar/Magic were even more so)

Mod Note: Yeah this thread is basically AIDS containment, you see it right there in the title.
But please don't bastardize someone else's handle, an example of which would be: All-inMcScrubbinDeezNutz.

There's nuance of course. It's one thing if someone like Rudy Gobert has a high TS% because he only ever attempts dunks and putbacks. No one cares about that.

But if you are a perimeter scorer and creator like Jordan and you put up a 47% TS% vs a league average of 52% that is awful no matter how many times you bring up his ppg.

38 year old Jordan was nowhere near Paul Pierce who scored 26 ppg on a very good 57% TS%.

To even compare the two is a joke.

It's a joke at this point, they really think Jordan's 47% TS% was deserving of All NBA?

Paul Pierce put up a 57% TS% on 26 ppg as the first option on the Celtics, and that was All NBA 3rd team. I hate Paul Pierce the person, but he was a damn good scorer.

They really are delusional.

Not sure which argument is more entertaining:

Hypothetical ability to make an All-NBA 3rd team at 39 years old but for an injury

Left handed drives

I hope this thread never dies

MJ was at 25 ppg before the injury and we're assuming he doesn't get hurt in this All-NBA hypothetical

So his PPG was similar to Pierce, while being a better passer, defender, goat-level IQ, and leader than "cancer" Pierce - Pierce was considered one of the biggest losers in the league and also a massive cancer.

Overall, Pierce wasn't a better player than pre-injury Jordan and he didn't become a better player until he buttressed his athleticism with some of those intangibles by actually winning (FMVP).

Of course we already established that MJ would've made it over baby Nash if he hadn't gotten hurt.. Nash wasn't even considered a great player back then - he wasn't "Nash" that we came to know and was barely beginning to come into his own.. He actually made All-NBA that year specifically because MJ went down - he was the lucky guy that benefitted from MJ's injury.

25 ppg on what TS%?

You are never getting out of this point.

Paul Pierce had 26 ppg on 57% TS%, both as first options from the perimeter.

What was Jordan's TS%?

I hope LeBron plays til he's 45. I really really do.

TS doesn't offset the other things like goat IQ vs "cancer" Pierce

there's no comparison

goat IQ, passing and defense

And even the TS argument fails because when Pierce had garbage scoring help in 2004 (facing max defensive attention like MJ in 02'), he had 51.7 TS in the middle of his prime.. So Pierce's TS in other years that you're referencing was boosted by having an equal-scoring partner in Antoine Walker

Paul Pierce is a Celtics legend. Antoine Walker was a chucker and a fraud.

2002 Paul Pierce >>>>> 2002 Wizards Jordan.

fallguy writing paragraphs trying to convince people Wizards Jordan was all-nba 3rd team in 2002:

Remove Curry please from thread title.

The only 3 people with GOAT equity are Bran / MJ / Joker

Joker doesn't imo.

His peak is amazing but he started pretty late and he'll probably retire early to go be a horse breeder or whatever his hobby is.

Wemby has GOAT equity though.

fallguy is obviously trolling. It's MontrealCorp that is actually worrying as he seems to really believe it.

Nash was garbage in 2002 - MJ was way better than him... That's like saying 2013 Harden > 38-year old Lebron... It's just not true unless you're mistakenly thinking of baby Nash/Harden as their MVP versions.

Ultimately, you guys are really underrating 2002 Jordan before the injury - he was basically still Jordan and was getting better as the season wore on, while leading a nothing-cast to the 4 seed - that's better than missing the play-in with AD or simply not winning the title every year with a rich man's Pippen that AD clearly is - AD is actually a David Robinson-level player and actually superior because he destroyed goat-level guys of Hakeem's caliber (Jokic), while Robinson was destroyed by this goat-level caliber.. So it's night and day - AD is superior to David Robinson and his #4 all-time PER backs this up.. It's a crime to not win every year with this goat 2-way caliber as a teammate.

Hey fallguy what was Jordan's TS% in 2002?

My ultimate argument against Lebron is literally the statistical record and therefore not a troll - here's the argument and notice that every assertion is statistical record, aka perennial underdog status, hold-times, low team assists, long list of weak fits/teammates cratering alongside him, etc, etc.. This is all statistical record (not a troll).. I will provide exact sources upon request of any assertion that is made:

It's basketball 101 that point guards use extended live dribbles (ball-domination), so they normally score without teammates assisting them (low assisted rates) and the live-dribbling also gives them longer hold-times (they hold the ball longer each game than any other position).. Accordingly, assisted rate and hold-time are 2 distinctly-unique stats that define point guards.. This is relevant to Lebron because he starts at forward but his skillset is actually a point guard skillset, so after tip off he becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor (2nd player with a point guard assisted rate and hold-time).. Having 2 players with high hold-times and low assisted rates gives teammates less hold-time and opportunity to assist than they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups.. Lower teammate assists yields low TEAM assist capacity (can't achieve high-assist teams).. The common thread in Lebron's last 4 Finals losses was massive deficits in team assists... Essentially, but turning a highly-assisted position (forward) into a lowly-assisted one (PG), Lebron lowers any team's assist capacity and brand of ball, thereby needing more help/talent.

Ultimately, Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position (point guard hold-time and assisted rate as a forward) imposes spot-up roles (reduces teammates assists and increases their assisted rate) - these spot-up roles prevent elite teammate fits, chemistry or strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding perennial underdogs and Finals losers regardless of cast or preseason favorite status.. Lebron's inherently weaker brand of ball underachieves favored rosters by losing with preseason favorites or falling to underdog from 2011-2016 and 2021 (edit: except the Allen miracle season).

Again, this is all statistical record and I will furnish sources upon request of any assertion that was made in this post.

Why is LeBron being a point-forward bad but Jokic being a point-center is totally fine?

You just hate LeBron.

I don't like getting too much into the weeds or revealing too much professional information.

But the reality is that chucking (low efficiency high volume) is a proven, viable strategy that can win games with weak or undermanned rosters..

Anyone that played with a chucker knows that it doesn't take long to start anticipating the chuck and get in position for rebounds before defenders have an opportunity to do so.. And it's intuitive that a team led by a chucker will focus on offensive rebounds as well.. It's also statistical record that there's a correlation between high volume chucking and significant edges on the offensive glass.. All of Jordan's high volume series had big edges on the offensive glass and this edge was negatively correlated with efficiency (ran opposite - so the lower Jordan's efficiency, the greater the edge on the offensive glass)..

We all know that teams with zippy ball movement wear out opponents defensively, so they have less capacity for offense - this is the attrition battle that becomes prevalent among 2 high-level teams as a series progresses.. A great chucker can win this attrition battle to a certain extent by simply forcing the defense to guard all his shots - if a great chucker goes 10-35, the opposing defense was worn out to an extent defending that and then scrambling for the rebounds.. There are tons of individual games where people wondered how the Bulls won with Jordan shooting like dog crap but they were actually controlling the pace and scrambles via Jordan's chucking.

Ultimately, the greatest chuckers in history could carry weak casts to viable records whether it's Westbrick, Iverson or MJ... And I always thought the reason that 2015-2020 Lebron > previous versions was because he learned how to chuck in 2015 and learned how to control games this way.. It was an offset to his ball-domination, which normally allows defenses to rest, especially with his low volume in the 14' Finals (17 shots per game).. He clearly learned the following year and doubled his volume, which allowed him to stay close against a superior team to the 14' Spurs, despite having a weaker roster.. I believe the 2015-2020 version of Lebron that knew how to chuck or "gun" could've won in 2007 and possibly 2009 and 2010.
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Cool, I asked what Jordan's TS% was in 2002.

Anyone that requires point guard style (ball-domination) isn't a point-anything - they're just a point guard because they have a point guard hold-time and assisted rate (they dominate the ball).

Otoh, true point forwards like Dray, Bird, or Jokic play primarily in the high post or post, so they achieve good assist-levels without dominating the ball (low hold-times) and while still having high assisted rates (teammates can assist them - they play off teammates, aka off-ball).

Infact, Jordan's post dominance and low hold-times are more like Bird or Jokic, so he's more of a point-forward (good assist levels with low hold-times) than Lebron.. Lebron simply has a point guard skillset (ball-domination) but starts at forward, which yields suboptimal 2-point guard lineups (overly ball-dominant lineups that hinders chemistry, thus requiring more help/talent, aka talent-based winning)

4-peat for Jokic or anyone with comparable individual stats = goat over Mikey

4-peat would be a substantive body of work that's superior to anything mj did (3-peat), and this matters because it was Jordan's 3-peat that made him goat over Magic or Bird - it was considered better than anything they did, so everyone said he was goat.. Jokic would get the same credit for superior peak achievement - a superior peak level of basketball, aka superior combination of goat individual/team achievement, aka goat)

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92' JORDAN........... MVP...... FMVP...... #3 DPOY...... #1 scoring..... #1 PER-BPM-WS-VORP... 1 all-star teammate... 36 ppg to win Finals (15 more than sidekick)
13' LEBRON'.......... MVP...... FMVP...... #2 DPOY..... # 4 scoring..... #1 PER-BPM-WS-VORP... 2 all-star teammate... 25 ppg to win Finals (5 more than sidekick)

- 92' wasn't even close to being Jordan's best year, while Lebron's 2013 is conxsidered his best year...

- Jordan was 2nd for DPOY in 93' and three-peated with 41 ppg...

- Or the perfect 91' and 96' seasons that combined goat team dominance with goat individual dominance... or the clutch 97' and 98' seasons.. or the 89' and 90' carry-jobs