LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Similarly, the 90's Bulls got better each time they lost their best defender in 94' (lost MJ), 95' (lost Horace), 98' (lost Pip for 1st half of yr) - each time the Bulls had better defenses after losing a great defender.. This is because they still had culture of effort and long-standing chemistry.
Accordingly, any team with MJ will develop great defense because he promotes culture of effort and long-standing chemistry..
Comedy gold here.
Even if you count them as Bruce Bowen rings he has 6 more of them, but one of the dumbest takes from him.
Russell isn't a POS degenerate like MJ, it took a mastermind like Jackson to keep a roster together, he'd be a Kyrie with modern media attention and random coaches
Good to see you didn't let him have the only dumbest take.
A quick review of your posts in this thread shows all pro Jordan, anti LeBron takes going back over a decade! And consistently over the years too. You also have 70 000 posts on this forum.
And you have the gall to sit there and tell us to "move on".
You're just upset your fellow Jordan stan fallguy is getting whipped like a pinata all over the place while LeBRAN is extending his lead as the GOAT.
[emoji23]
So you're a Lebron hater.
/s
Why does anyone care about this? I mean if you want to try and say a guy that can literally do everything on the court, and has done it at a higher level, for longer than anyone is basketball history, can't turn ok rosters into champions, ok... great. Opinion noted.
I think you want it to be one way @allblackdan, but it’s the other way.
When I was in high school, I jerked off in a freezer at my supermarket to a Jessica Alba Maxim issue.
No regrets.
^^^ MJ is the only player that was expected to win with no offensive help
which makes him GOAT
you're saying that scoring help is irrelevant for MJ when it's literally the biggest kind of help that everyone else in history needed.
Ultimately, MJ is the only player that won multiple chips with bad offensive help and low-scoring teammates and where he had to carry scoring load for playoffs and Finals - he won 6 titles this way, while otherwise it was only done in one-off fashion such as 06' Wade, 03' Duncan, 94' Hakeem, or 00' Shaq.
Even if you count them as Bruce Bowen rings he has 6 more of them, but one of the dumbest takes from him.
Russell isn't a POS degenerate like MJ, it took a mastermind like Jackson to keep a roster together, he'd be a Kyrie with modern media attention and random coaches
It's ironic that the Klutch fraudsters say Jordan was "just a scorer", when infact, Bill Russell was often "just a defender"
As usual, the opposite of mainstream voices is infact the truth
It can be easily shown that Russell was often "just a defender", while Jordan was never just a scorer by virtue of being a top 5 DPOY from 88-98' including a 2nd place in 1993 and 1st in 88'...
Jordan also led Pippen in assists for their Finals career, Playoff career, and regular season career, which includes 6 of 9 playoff runs and 3 title runs.. Jordan also averaged more assists in the playoffs than Lebron thru half their chips, which is the first 9 years of their playoff careers until Curry' spacing era made offense easier for everyone from 2015 onwards - only then did Lebron begin averaging more assists than MJ in the playoffs.
when we consider:
* KD's twice-confirmed superior ability with Westbrook.... i.e. taking baby Westbrick to the Finals in 2012 and then getting a 3-1 lead against a fresh 73-win team - these 2 things demonstrate superior capability with Westbrook than Lebron missing play-in with Westbrook and AD - it's a massive chasm in ability
* KD's superior chemistry with all player-types and the superior strategic capacity/coaching that his skillset offers teams
* the "unbeatable" team ceiling that KD gives a team (17-19' Warriors) compared to Lebron mostly losing regardless of cast
* KD destroying Lebron HU on numerous occasion including the 12/17/18 Finals
it's clear that KD has an argument to be made over Lebron...
but Lebron simply had a 6-year headstart in the colluding space.. KD's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond because by then it was too late andn he got 2nd pickings, aka injured players likek harden & kyrie, while his moves looked late and desperate compared to 1st-mover Lebron (in the colluding space).
.
How am I "hating" by pointing out a clear disparity that Lebron has a low seed this year and missed the play-in with AD, while Jordan went 6/6 with poor man's AD?
Jordan was unbeatable the instant he got 1 all-star, while Lebron mostly lost with 2 all-stars like Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love, and now he's 1/4 with Jeff Bezos version of Pippen (AD).
How can Lebron have a goat case given this obvious disparity in capability?
Lebron actually missed the play-in with two Pippen-level producers because those Lakers had AD and Westbrook..
And don't blame "bad fit" because bad fit = skill deficit.. It's Lebron's fault that he lacks the expert jumpshooting skill and hoops instinct to play off teammates (off-ball), which would allow great fit with Westbrook like KD had... KD had a 3-1 lead against a fresh Warriors team, and already made the Finals with baby Westbrick in 2012, while Lebron missed the play-in with Westbrook and AD.. So Lebron struggles to demonstrate superior capability to KD, let alone MJ.. It's simply a fake debate that Klutch Sports created by lying about MJ and Lebron's careers.
In addition to MJ never having a low seed or lottery season with AD, it's obvious that MJ would never have the meltdowns in 2011 or 2010 either
MJ would also never average 22 on 36% vs Spurs in 07', or miss playoffs with East all-star center in 05'.. He also would never lose by record amount despite having the preseason favorite and even odds entering the series like Lebron had in the 2014 Finals..
He would also never win 53 games in 2017 with 2 all-star teammates - this was pathetic by Lebron and the horrible regular season made the Finals a massive mismatch instead of a clash of titans like the 80's Celtics/Lakers...
Ultimately, there are many seasons of Lebron's career that MJ would've done much better, while there are zero seasons of MJ where Lebron would've done better... Lebron wouldn't do better in Jordan's first few seasons because Lebron needed an all-star teammate to win 40 games in 05', and then he needed a HOF coach and 22/5/5 all-defender to win 50 and make 06' Playoffs.. Otoh, MJ needed no cast or coaching to win 40, 50 or make Playoffs.. Also keep in mind that Lebron never won a series vs a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, so he never carried weak help over top teams in 2 decades.
Given the extra help that Lebron needed to win 40 and 50 games, or to carry weak help over top teams, there are zero seasons of Jordan's career that Lebron would've done better but many seasons of Lebron's career where MJ would've done much better.
Lebron can't run off screens and play shooting guard, nor can he guard guys like Klay off screens - so Lebron cannot play or defend shooting guards.
Furthermore, Lebron can't play power forward because otherwise he would've had a great fit with Westbrook.
PF's like Karl Malone or AD love ball-dominators like Stockton or Lebron... Accordingly, bad fits with Westbrook, Bosh, Love, Ingram, Hughes, Wade, and more confirm that Lebron doesn't play 5 positions because someone that plays 5 positions cannot have bad fits..
The history of bad fits and clashes with other ball-handlers like Westbrook confirms that Lebron simply has a point guard skillset (ball-dominance), which clashes with other ball-handlers and forwards - specifically, Lebron's ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stalls chemistry and young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (more help).. This is statistical fact - Lebron decreases his teammates assists and increases their assisted rate (turns them into play-finishers/spot-up shooters).
"Organic" winners like Curry, Jokic, Giannis or MJ had regular rosters with only 1 franchise player, while Lebron obtained better rosters by putting 3 franchise players on 1 team, aka "super-team".. Since organic rosters are characterized by lacking ready-made talent, they must win with development of chemistry, brand of ball and young players.. This kind of chemistry and young player development are hallmarks of the "organic" path, but unfortunately, Lebron's reliance on ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stalls young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically)..
Lebron is forced to rely on ball-dominance because he lacks expert jumpshooting skill, while also lacking the ability or great instinct to play off teammates (off-ball).. Since Lebron's skillset of imposing spot-up roles hinders teammate development, chemistry or strategic capcacity/coaching, he fields mostly weak records, perennial underdogs and low team ceiling/Finals records regardless of cast.
Ultimately, guys like Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Mj and Lebron all took the organic path of chemistry development to achieve league favorites by Year 7 with "normal" or "organic" rosters... But Lebron simply gave up in 2010 and teamed up with opponents thereafter.. He gave up on learning how to win via normal casts and chemistry development (organic), and opted for a talent-based approach instead.. As a talent-based winner that now used talent as the excuse for losing (not enough help), he never truly learned how to win, aka chemistry, organic
Every bad team like the current Pistons will eventually win a game, so even the worst teams eventually win... Therefore, it's stupid to praise Lebron for producing bad teams that eventually win once in a while, instead of praising players that can produce great teams that mostly win titles every year.
Again, the fraud is selling the public that Lebron's rosters are bad and his teams are supposed to have bad regular season records when in reality his rosters were the preseason favorite and have more all-stars than MJ ever had... The downplaying of the regular season and his rosters makes his teams underdogs, so that the eventual upset win is praised.. Meanwhile guys that produce great regular season records and dominant favorites that mostly win every year are crapped on by saying they have stacked teams.. It's fraud.. The reality is that Curry and MJ would have 10 titles each and many 70-win seasons with Lebron's rosters.. They already won more than him with far less supporting talent or seasons.
It's ironic that the Klutch fraudsters say Jordan was "just a scorer", when infact, Bill Russell was often "just a defender"
As usual, the opposite of mainstream voices is infact the truth
It can be easily shown that Russell was often "just a defender", while Jordan was never just a scorer by virtue of being a top 5 DPOY from 88-98' including a 2nd place in 1993 and 1st in 88'...
Russell's five MVPs more than clearly contradict the take that he was "just a defender."
And, lol, Jordan's DPOY votes are the definition of mainstream voices.
You're all over the place.
Bill Russel 11 rANGZ > Jordan's 6
Now we shall begin discuss Robert Horry in the top 5.
Sam Jones >>> Jordan.
10 rings and he was usually the main scorer on the Celtics.
Flawless argument. You can't beat it.
John Havlicek >>> Jordan also.
8 rings, also the main scorer for most of them.
Russell's five MVPs more than clearly contradict the take that he was "just a defender."
And, lol, Jordan's DPOY votes are the definition of mainstream voices.
You're all over the place.
I didn't say every title or every season, but many of Russell's titles were won as "just a defender"
Otoh, none of MJ's titles were won as "just a scorer"
See the difference
So John Havlicek >>> Jordan.
8 rings > 6 rings.
Top scorer on the team for most of them. Also was a great defender. This is where your argument takes you. Can you handle it?
Are we really talking about John Havlicek being above LeBron ?
He wasn’t even the best player in the league once ..
So John Havlicek >>> Jordan.
8 rings > 6 rings.
Top scorer on the team for most of them. Also was a great defender. This is where your argument takes you. Can you handle it?
Havlicek's scoring rank on team for RS, PO, Finals
1963........ 4th, 5th, 6th
1964........ 1st, 3rd, 2nd
1965........ 2nd, 2nd, 2nd
1966........ 2nd, 2nd, 2nd
1968........ 2nd, 1st, 1st
1969........ 1st, 1st, 1st
1974........ 1st, 1st, 1st
1976........ 4th, 4th, 3rd
So Havlicek won 2 chips where he led his team in scoring for the RS, PO and Finals, but 1 of those chips he lost FMVP to West (69').
Accordingly, similar to every all-timer in history (including Lebron), Havlicek shared the scoring load with numerous elite-scoring teammates that could lead the team in scoring for entire playoff runs.. In Havlicek's case, he shared the scoring load with Sam Jones and Bill Russell, while Lebron shared the scoring load all-time producers like Wade, AD or Kyrie.
Ultimately, only Jordan won 6 chips as scoring leader and only Jordan won multiple chips while CARRYING the scoring load for playoffs and Finals (defeating max defensive attention).. Jordan won 6 chips while defeating max defensive attention, which only occurs in one-offs otherwise, such as 06' Wade, 03' Duncan, 00' Shaq or 94' Hakeem..
So John Havlicek >>> Jordan.
8 rings > 6 rings.
Top scorer on the team for most of them. Also was a great defender. This is where your argument takes you. Can you handle it?
Since the inception of the 3-point line, every MVP has been a thoroughly dominant offensive player, which confirms that Bill Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber in today's game..
Similar to the aforementioned correlation between modern MVP's and scoring, stars in general are correlated with scoring more than any other category - star help generally means scoring help in the sport of basketball.. Accordingly, Jordan's lesser need for scoring help meant that he needed less star help.
Ultimately, it shouldn't be a surprise that the goat would be goat at the most important category, but in this case the extent of the separation is remarkable because Jordan's goat scoring wasn't just PPG - it was goat amounts of scoring while playing a goat brand of ball (low turnover, low ball-dominance - lets the ball move).. this ability to maintain brand of ball makes Jordan's gaudy scoring advantage (5 ppg in the playoffs over everyone in history) particularly amazing
So John Havlicek >>> Jordan.
8 rings > 6 rings.
Top scorer on the team for most of them. Also was a great defender. This is where your argument takes you. Can you handle it?
Russell was the scoring leader on a few title teams while also being a goat-level defender, so I think he's in the Hakeem range and probably a little better due to intangibles... that's congruent with my rankings, where I have Russell #6 all-time (MJ, Kobe, Curry, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Magic)..
this top 10 is ranked by the player-type that needs the least help, so the best expert jumpshooters needed the least help, followed by the best centers, followed by the best ball-dominators, who needed the most help..
specifically, expert jumpshooters can drop 40 while the ball moves, so they have sufficient brand of ball at high scoring volume to beat top teams - this ability to carry the scoring load against top teams allows them to win with less scoring help like klay, pippen or pau.. Otoh, other player types like centers and ball-dominators can't score large amounts without sacrificing brand of ball (too ball-dominant), so they can't carry the scoring load against top teams and therefore need all-time scoring help like kareem, AD or Wade.
.
It's hilarious watching you perform mental gymnastics each time I make you look like a fool.
How do you get lost so easily?
We're applying TWOG logic to his own arguments to show why they're so dumb.
Havlicek >>> Jordan is a natural consequence of ring counting, since Russell >>> Jordan was dismissed with "Russell is just a defender."
Well Havlicek still has more rings than Jordan while being a primary scorer for most of his career. And on top of that Havlicek was also a great defender so you can't dismiss it with "Havlicek was only a scorer" either.
Following TWOG logic leads you to Havlicek >>> Jordan.
