LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
LeBron must've been listening to all this talk about expert jump shooting.
LeBron James scores 40 points and makes 9 3-pointers on 10 attempts, including a fall-away 3 in the corner, and a deep one from about 28 feet.
Meanwhile TWOG angrily shakes his fists while reminiscing about "expert jumpshooters" back in his day. You love to see it.
40 points on 17 shots is nutty
How do you get lost so easily?
We're applying TWOG logic to his own arguments to show why they're so dumb.
Havlicek >>> Jordan is a natural consequence of ring counting, since Russell >>> Jordan was dismissed with "Russell is just a defender."
Well Havlicek still has more rings than Jordan while being a primary scorer for most of his career. And on top of that Havlicek was also a great defender so you can't dismiss it with "Havlicek was only a scorer" either.
Following TWOG logic l
Havlicek wasn't the primary scorer - he only led his team in scoring for the regular season, playoffs and Finals for 2 rings and one of those rings he didn't win FMVP)
Only Jordan was the scoring leader for 6 chips
So you're just lying and it's standard at this point for Lebron fans because that's all you have - you obviously have no goat case... So you say something dumb like the Havlicek and I correct you with the statistical record - you proceed to pretend that you weren't corrected and double down
The facts remain - only Jordan won 6 rings as the leading scorer (RS, PO, Finals)
Lebron wasn't defended last night and isn't defended in general - that's how deep the fraud goes at this point.
The media only covers the Lakers so the entire NBA is a charade to get Lebron his 5th chip - GM's send the Lakers their best players and defenders don't vigorously defend Lebron like MJ, Bird, or Kobe were defended.
This is fact and if you don't agree, then you have your head in the sand and are an immature child that doesn't understand how the world works.
But the eye test shows the story - Lebron isn't vigorously defended - defenders go along with the media narrative and let him score, while GM's send the Lakers all their best players.. When i saw that the Lakers had gotten Dinwiddie - it's pretty astounding - complete overkill - an obvious attempt to get Lebron #5
LeBron officially qualifies for all-nba teams with 65 games played. Quite fitting that he puts up 40 points on 17 shots at 39 years old and stamping his ticket into all-nba status.
At this point I'd say its a lock for LeBron to be 2nd team all-nba, and 3rd team at worst.
That is 20 straight all-nba teams with 13 first team all-nbas.
Extending his lead once more.
How do you get lost so easily?
We're applying TWOG logic to his own arguments to show why they're so dumb.
Havlicek >>> Jordan is a natural consequence of ring counting, since Russell >>> Jordan was dismissed with "Russell is just a defender."
Well Havlicek still has more rings than Jordan while being a primary scorer for most of his career. And on top of that Havlicek was also a great defender so you can't dismiss it with "Havlicek was only a scorer" either.
Following TWOG logic l
Havlicek wasn't the primary scorer - he only led his team in scoring for the regular season, playoffs and Finals for 2 rings and one of those rings he didn't win FMVP
Only Jordan was the scoring leader for 6 chips
So you're just lying and it's standard at this point for Lebron fans because that's all you have - you obviously have no goat case... So you say something dumb like the Havlicek and I correct you with the statistical record - you proceed to pretend that you weren't corrected and double down
The facts remain - only Jordan won 6 rings as the leading scorer (RS, PO, Finals).
LeBron officially qualifies for all-nba teams with 65 games played. Quite fitting that he puts up 40 points on 17 shots at 39 years old and stamping his ticket into all-nba status.
At this point I'd say its a lock for LeBron to be 2nd team all-nba, and 3rd team at worst.
That is 20 straight all-nba teams with 13 first team all-nbas.
Extending his lead once more.
playing at a lower level for longer = longevity
not a goat case
longevity has nothing to do with how well someone plays basketball.
Havlicek wasn't the primary scorer - he only led his team in scoring for the regular season, playoffs and Finals for 2 rings and one of those rings he didn't win FMVP)
Only Jordan was the scoring leader for 6 chips
So you're just lying and it's standard at this point for Lebron fans because that's all you have - you obviously have no goat case... So you say something dumb like the Havlicek and I correct you with the statistical record - you proceed to pretend that you weren't corrected and double
He led the Celtics in scoring in 7 different seasons, but sure, not the primary scorer. I posted no lies, you just re-defined "primary scorer" to mean that a player must be the PPG leader in every single round of the playoffs which is going to include 3 game samples and such.
This is the problem with you, you cherry pick the EXACT CRITERIA that only Jordan meets so that Jordan is only player who even qualifies as having a GOAT case. We can see right through this kind of bullshit argument.
If you allowed me to cherry pick to that level I could easily make an equally valid GOAT case for several players, Lebron being one of them.
Exceptions prove the rule - Lebron can't shoot based on worst-ever mid-range and weak 3-point game and eye test of his horrific form, mechanics and footwork
So Lebron lacks expert jumpshooting skill, while also lacking the ability or great instinct to play off teammates (off-ball)..
Consequently, he relies on ball-dominance and imposes spot-up roles that hinders teammate development, chemistry or strategic capacity/coaching, thereby producing weak records, perennial underdogs and low team ceiling/Finals records regardless of cast.
He led the Celtics in scoring in 7 different seasons, but sure, not the primary scorer. I posted no lies, you just re-defined "primary scorer" to mean that a player must be the PPG leader in every single round of the playoffs which is going to include 3 game samples and such.
This is the problem with you, you cherry pick the EXACT CRITERIA that only Jordan meets so that Jordan is only player who even qualifies as having a GOAT case. We can see right through this kind of bullshit argument.
If you a
Nope, Havilicek has 2 chips where he led his team in scoring for RS, PO and Finals
So he was only the primary scorer for 2 chips, while MJ was leading scorer for 6..
In addition to only leading the scoring for 2 chips, Havlicek never carried the scoring load (defeated max defensive attention) like MJ did for every chip and every season of his career.
Havlicek had numerous equal-scoring teammates to attract equal defensive attention, while MJ always had to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) - it's the distinction that makes him goat
Becoming a 3 point sharp shooter at 39 years old is quite something to behold for someone that apparently "can't shoot".
Lebron has many seasons and series of shooting like dog crap at 3+ attempts, while MJ has none - MJ always shot well at today's volumes, while Lebron is frequently brick city at 3+ attempts
Furthermore, MJ is the goat 2-point jumpshbooter...
Ultimately, the difference is that Lebron is robotic with no bag and stone hands (no touch), while guys like MJ, Kobe, Curry or Bird could shoot off-the-cuff, ad-hoc jumpers and LIVE of jumpshooting every game.. with FEATHERY touch
so it's night and day
They were considered "jumpshooters" and Lebron is not.
Like I said, you're artificially cherry-picking specific criteria that no one else can meet because having an "equally-scoring partner" at any point in your career automatically disqualifies you from GOAT contention.
That's not how basketball actually works you demented lunatic.
Lebron wasn't defended last night and isn't defended in general - that's how deep the fraud goes at this point.
The media only covers the Lakers so the entire NBA is a charade to get Lebron his 5th chip - GM's send the Lakers their best players and defenders don't vigorously defend Lebron like MJ, Bird, or Kobe were defended.
This is fact and if you don't agree, then you have your head in the sand and are an immature child that doesn't understand how the world works.
But the eye test shows the stor
^^^ that's the tic toc
Watching TWOG furiously repeat himself like an angry child every time LeBron does something great is the reason I come back to this thread.
Like I said, you're artificially cherry-picking specific criteria that no one else can meet because having an "equally-scoring partner" at any point in your career automatically disqualifies you from GOAT contention.
That's not how basketball actually works you demented lunatic.
if you need an all-time scorer as a teammate to lead the team in scoring for an entire playoff run, then you aren't anywhere near as good as someone that can completely carry the scoring load and therefore needs less help...
Someone that can produce an all-time team and dynasty with just Klay is superior to someone that needs franchise players and elite producers like Wade, AD or Kyrie.... plus additional franchise players and all-stars at THIRD option
this is intuitive - if you need more help, than you're inferior at basketball... the best ball-dominators need more help, so their inferior to the best expert jumpshooters that needed a lot less help
Watching TWOG furiously repeat himself like an angry child every time LeBron does something great is the reason I come back to this thread.
See you've touched on one of the biggest misconceptions of Lebron's career
Notice how he only "dominates" bad teams... When the Lakers play the Bucks, Celtics, Nuggets or anyone good, it's AD-ball... Look it up - it's only Lebron-ball against the bad teams and it's AD-ball against the top teams.. This was the case in the 2020 playoffs and for Lebron's entire career because he NEVER won a series vs top teams by completely carrying the load - he never beat top 5 SRS teams with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick... So against the top teams, he needs a ton of help and someone else to dominate
story of his career - bron-ball vs bad teams and but against good teams, he needs someone else to dominate too
That's right I'm busting you guys up
Look what I just did to SABR regarding his Havlicek lie - he said that Havlicek was the leading scorer on many title teams and he was only the leading scorer for 2 titles - he was only the leading scorer in regular season OR playoffs for 2 titles.. Every other time a teammate led the scoring.
So I'm ruining your "santa-like" delusions of the game.. There's no santa - Lebron is a fraud that never learned how to win (chemistry, organic) - he only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning, all-star team strategy)... and still mostly loses regardless of cast!!!... the biggest fraud in sports history
TWOG,
You didn't answer. Who's better, Havlicek or LeBron?
Havlicek only led his team in scoring for the regular season of 2 titles
Ditto playoffs.. He only led his team in playoff scoring for 2 titles
Ditto Finals.. He only led his team in Finals scoring for 2 titles.
Lebron did it for 3, so that's a strong indication that he's better
But it's interesting because the gap between Havlicek and Lebron is MUCH closer than you think for all the reasons that already stated, aka Lebron's skillset yields bad chemistry and weak teams that need a ton of help - he isn't capable of having a team that mostly wins titles for any stretch of time.. Bron-ball cannot have all-time teams regardless of cast and mostly loses regardless of cast.. it's just a horrific brand of ball (big man ball-dominance) that requires ridiculous help and still mostly lose regardless of cast.. his teams can never reach all-time level..
H
If you allowed me to cherry pick to that level I could easily make an equally valid GOAT case for several players, Lebron being one of them.
The criteria was leading your team in scoring while winning a title - Havlicek did that twice and MJ did it 6 times.
There's no cherry-picking - you were simply wrong in thinking that Havlicek led the team in scoring for most of their titles - he didn't and it's because he had a bunch of equal-scoring teammates to attract equal defensive attention, so he never had to defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load) like MJ did for every chip.. MJ wasn't just the scoring leader for every chip - he carried the scoring load for every chip (defeated max defensive attention).
Jordan won 6 chips while facing the kind of defensive attention that Lebron faced in 2007 or 2015 Finals - the only difference is that Jordan was good enough at basketball to fit with spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Hughes, so he would've gotten at least 15.7 on bad efficiency from Hughes, which was enough to win the 96' and 98' Finals... 19 on 42% from a sidekick was enough for MJ to win 6 (6/6)
