LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Only 5 years of 21-year career?

So he was nowhere near 1st team all-defense for nearly 80% of his career?... aka nowhere near MJ for nearly 80% of career?.. smh

MJ was 2nd for DPOY in 93', while having nearly twice as many 1st team all-defense as Lebron in far less seasons.

Lebron's first occurrence of all-defense or MVP was 2009, and his last for either category was 2013 (14' for all-defense).

That's a 4 or 5-year peak of 2-way play for Lebron, while MJ's peak was twice as long - he was MVP and 1st team defense for an 11-year period (88' to 98').. That's the goat longevity of MVP play and the goat longevity of peak.

Jordan's DPOY in 88' produced the #3 defense with less defensive help than any of Lebron's high-ranked teams that you listed.

In 2005, the Cavs acquired all-defender Eric Snow and added another all-defender in 2006 to create an all-defender backcourt of Snow/Hughes with great size... This all-defense backcourt was complimented by 2.5 blocks from all-star Zydrunas Illgauskas, while the team added future all-defender Varejao as well in 05'.

Lebron was 3rd or 4th in rebounding on his own team from 05-10'.. The exception is 09' when he was basically a tie for first, but MJ led his team in 85' and was basically a tie for 1st in 89'.

Jordan played with 3 guys that averaged 7+ rebounds alongside him (Pippen, Grant, Rodman), while Lebron played with 20 guys that averaged 7+ rebounds alongside him (Boozer, Gooden, Zydrunas, Varejao, Wallace, Jamison, Shaq, Birdman, Haslem, Bosh, Mosgov, Tristan, Love, AD, McGee, Drummond, Vanderbilt', T Bryant, Dwight Howard)

Rim protection shows a similar gap.

Jordan also had 3 teammates with all-defense on their resume, compared to 9 for Lebron (Snow, Hughes, Varejao, Wade, Battier, AD, Rondo, Avery Bradley).

Based on the aforementioned superior rim protection, athletic guards and superior rebounding, it's clear that Lebron had greater defensive help from 04-12 than 85-95' Jordan.. the defensive rankings confirm this

Jordan was 3rd on his team in rebounding (6.5) for the 3rd ranked defense in 88', while Lebron was 3rd in rebounding (6.7) for the 4th ranked defense in 07'.. There has never been a significant gap in rebounds until the spacing era began in 2015, while MJ was always the better offensive rebounder.

Again, the versatility argument is overblown

and it's also wrong since a mediocre but versatile defender can't be compared to a goat defender like Duncan or MJ.

fallguy,

Who’s the GOAT rapper iyo?

That wasn't the bar. You've lost the argument again.

You called LeBron a bad defender many times.

Show me a "bad" defender who was 2nd in DPOY twice.

I debunked this already. During the years when LeBron was a great defender, he only ever had 1 all-defense teammate, Anderson Varejao once.

MJ literally had all-defense help every single year during his title runs, sometimes from two other teammates.

We're not talking about Anthony Davis because the claim isn't about Lakers LeBron being a great defender, it's about how peak LeBron (2009-2013) led his team to great defensive records with little help on that end. How did he manage to do that, if he was a "bad defender?"

Inb4 massive goal post shifting and bad faith arguments.

Despite an extremely short defensive peak where he played great defense, Lebron has been a "bad" defender for many years now.

And even if you think Lebron wasn't a "bad" defender and think he was only sub-par, anyone that isn't an all-defender every year will be considered a "bad" defender compared to someone that is 1st team defender every year.

For example, Kuzma is a bad defender compared to Giannis.. This is similar to varying degrees with lebron and Jordan, respectively.

For example, Lebron was a "bad" defender at 34 years compared to 34 year old Jordan (1st team defense and destroying Pippen in DPOY voting).. Or 30 year old Jordan was 2nd for DPOY, so 30-year old Lebron was a "bad defender" by domparison (no all-defense and beginning a 10-year run of no all-defense)..

Why would we only consider Lebron's defensive help in the few years that he made all-defense and ignore all the other years???.. This equates to rewarding Lebron for not being a great defender by ignoring his defensive help in those years... That's completely absurd

Lebron wasn't all-defense in 2007, but he played with 3 recent or future all-defenders (Snow, Hughes, Varejao) and an all-star center that was a top 7 rim protector several times (BPG).. This represents far more rim protection than MJ ever had, and more players with all-defense on their resume than MJ ever played with at one time.. This is why the 07' Cavs had the #4 defense despite Lebron not being considered a great defender at the time.. Otoh, the 88' Bulls had the #3 defense because MJ was DPOY.

Ultimately, it's better to play with 1 less all-defender if you can play with 5 or 6 more guys that are considered "good" defenders - this alone counters your cherry-picked argument of only looking at the years where Lebron made all-defense - he had 1 less all-defender in those years but still played with far more good defenders, aka more rim protectors, rebounders and players with all-defense on their resume.

And overall for Lebron's career, he played with far more good rim protectors, rebounders and defenders (players with all-defense on their resume) - it isn't remotely close as explained in the previous post.

So wait... it's a BAD thing that Jordan won with what Lebron lost with???....Lebron lost with many all-defensive players like Rondo, Avery Bradley, AD, Varejao, Battier, Wade, Hughes, Snow, and more, while Jordan won with the few that he had... Yet this is a knock of JORDAN... according to you.

Oh it’s waaaaayyyy too late for that

According to NBA.com, 80% of today's threes are "wide open" (4-6 feet from closest defender) or "wide open" (6+ feet).

So today's spacing format produces open threes at high volume.

When Bird had today's volume, he shot 46% for his career in games with 5+ attempts (RS and PO), and he shot 41% in games with 3+ attempts.. Accordingly, similar to Jordan, there are no seasons or series of Bird shooting below today's standard when he had today's volume, while there are plenty of seasons or series where Lebron shot like trash at today's volumes..

Unfortunately, Bird and Jordan shot only bailout volume most years (1-2 attmpts of highly contested or high-pressure threes at end of shot clock) - this bailout volume depressed their overall career percentages despite always shooting at today's standard when they had today's volumes.

Of course, there's FT shooting and clutch, where there's an argument to be made that Lebron has even bigger deficits in these areas vs Bird than he has vs Jordan.. Bird had even lower turnovers than Jordan and even better FT percentage - Lebron's biggest weaknesses are a few of Bird's biggest strengths.

In addition to Bird shooting far better than Lebron at today's volumes (46%), Bird was arguably the goat 2-point jumpshooter - he was a "knock-down" shooter that could even drop 50 off-screens and this "knock-down" ability allowed superior ball movement, chemistry, and strategic capacity/coaching..

So Bird's team ceilings were much higher than Lebron's.. Bird produced perennial favorites and dynasties, while leading the biggest turnaround of all-time as a rookie (lottery team to the Finals and 60 wins).

idk, you're diverting to bird vs lebron arguments now and still losing
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So wait... it's a BAD thing that Jordan won with what Lebron lost with??

Lebron lost with many all-defensive players like Rondo, Avery Bradley, AD, Varejao, Battier, Wade, Hughes, Snow, and more, while Jordan won with the few that he had... Yet this is a knock on JORDAN... according to you.

Btw, we know that Lebron can't score 36k as the role man with deft post and mid-range touch like Malone, but he's built quite similarly, except with a guard handle... So even though it's remarkable to see Karl Malone with a guard handle, it's still just Karl Malone..... still inferior to MJ
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So you admit that LeBron played great defense during his peak? Thank you, I rest my case.

Sure, but by the time LeBron was considered a great defender, none of the players you named were relevant at all, hence why LeBron himself was the primary reason for the Cavs' great defense in 2009-2010.

88 Bulls had future all-defense players Horace Grant and Charles Oakley. See how stupid this sounds? This is the exact same thing you said for LeBron.

Typical bad-faith argument from you.

Guys like Rondo and Avery Bradley were all-defense like 10 years before teaming up with LeBron, so who the hell cares?

Only Anderson Varejao and Anthony Davis were all-defense while playing with LeBron. In LeBron's entire career he's had an all-defense teammate a grand total of twice (Varejao and Davis once each).

Meanwhile Jordan has had all-defense teammates a whopping 9 times! Pippen 7 times by himself, plus Grant and Rodman once each.

So it's 9 to 2 in number of all-defense teammates in favor of Jordan. No one ****ing cares that Eric Snow or Avery Bradley were all-defense at some point during their career and later joined LeBron when they were washed up bench players. That's peak dishonesty, or par for the course for you.

Well, that's the new dumbest thing you've ever said.

That's impressive.

So now the bar for GOAT is Lebron being considered a great defender for 5 years of a 21 year career?

That's better than Jordan being considered a great defender for 10 of 15 years?

sounds like you lost the argument.

Ultimately, Lebron was a bad defender compared to Jordan for the vast majority of his career

this is confirmed by many seasons of Lebron's athletic prime when he wasn't even all-defense compared to Jordan's 1st team every year.

so we ignore seasons where Lebron had all-defensive help because Lebron himself wasn't a good defender those years?...

nope, you lost

Due to Jordan's DPOY, the 88' Bulls achieved the #3 defense with no coaching and no teammates with all-defense on their resume.

Otoh, the Cavs achieved the #3 and #7 defense in 09' or 10' because they had an all-time defensive coach, good rim protector and an all-defensive teammate, while also having a Year 6 organic team for better chemistry on both ends.

That's clearly night and day.. An obvious demonstration of Jordan's superiority.

Secondly, it's Lebron's own fault that he wasn't a great defender and therefore lost with all-defensive players like Hughes, Snow, Varejao, Rondo or AD... Jordan WON with all-defenders so that means we excuse lebron for LOSING with all-defenders?.. Ultimately, Jordan could win with a team of hustlers and defenders because he could carry the scoring load, while he himself was a great defender that led the defense.

Lebron lost with many all-defensive players during the years they were all-defenders (10' Varejao, 11' Wade, 21' AD) or recent seasons when they were all-defense (Snow, Hughes, Rondo, Battier) - this isn't the same as using bench rookies that won't be all-defense for another 4-6 years (88' Pippen & Grant).

Lebron can't play like Karl (36k as the roll-man), but he's built like Karl and simply replaces the big man skillset with a point guard one.

So even though it's remarkable to see Karl Malone with a guard handle, it's still just Karl Malone.... inferior to MJ

And if we pictured Karl with a guard handle, he would look smoother with a live dribble like Lebron does, but he would still have plenty of herky-jerky and clumsy movements - I could totally see Karl being the all-time turnover leader just like lebron is.. So Lebron is just Karl Malone except the big man skillset is replaced by point guard skills, turnover kingpin and LeBrick in the clutch - sounds just like Karl.

And then if you let Karl team up with a bunch of superstars, he would go 1/4 with each cast unless he had an Allen miracle... this weak winning frequency with each super-team would include many upsets, meltdowns or historic losses.. sounds like a record Karl would have if he was allowed to hand-pick super-teams.
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He literally didn't, you lying dolt.

LeBron has had a grand total of 2 teammates who were all-defense while playing with LeBron. Anderson Varejao and Anthony Davis.

No one cares that Eric Snow or Rajon Rondo were all-defense 5-10 years before joining LeBron. Wade was literally never all-defense after LeBron joined Miami because his athleticism declined rapidly following his early peak.

You always say "point guard skillset" like it's a bad thing. Literally all the best players in the NBA right now have point guard skillsets.

Luka? Point guard.

SGA? Point guard.

Jokic? Functionally a point guard.

You're ****ing clueless, probably because by your own admission you don't actually watch basketball.

He doesn't think a point guard oriented offense is a title-winning offense.

Historically he's not really wrong... Except instances where LeBron James or Magic Johnson is your point forward hybrid.

He's the guy who prays at the alter of pocket quarterbacks while Bron is the GOAT scrambler (who's won 4x, breaking his brain). LeBron Derangement Syndrome imo.

Jalen Brunson, functionally a point guard.

Lebron had 2 teammates make all-defense alongside him, while Jordan had 3, but Wade followed a "larry hughes" trend in his first year alongside Lebron - Hughes cratered from 1st team defense and steals champ in 2005, to a "westbrick" level alongside Lebron in 06'... This poisonous fit that Lebron has with spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Hughes or Westbrick infected Wade as well in 2011.

Regardless, Lebron didn't play great defense for half his titles (no all-defense) and didn't have to carry the scoring load in any Finals due to all-time scorers at sidekick.. Otoh, Jordan played great defense for every title and carried the scoring load for every RS, PO, Finals due to weak-scoring rosters.

Jordan showed many times that he could dominate with the point guard skillset but the point guard skillset should only be part of a great perimeter players' game - it shouldn't be their whole game because that generates weaker fits and strategic capacity/coaching - so they should also be able to dominate via jumpshooting and instinct to play off teammates (off-ball) in addition to the point guard skillset

Try again.

Pippen himself was all-defense 7 times as Jordan's teammate, including twice almost winning DPOY (2nd twice). Then you have Grant and Rodman once each.

So Jordan had 9 instances of having an all-defense teammate vs 2 for LeBron. Anthony Davis has only been all-defense once as a Laker, mostly because he gets injured a lot.

Debunked your narrative again. LOL at even bringing up Eric Snow or Avery Bradley. Embarassing.

Does fallguy even believe the false rhetoric he's spewing?

Deep down, I think he knows he's a fraud.

The idea of using All-Defense selections without any positional context or nuance to evaluate overall defensive skill is hilarious.

Kobe Bryant has more first team all-Defense selections than Tim Duncan. Are we to believe from this that Bryant was the superior defender? Bryant had 15 total selections to Rudy Gobert’s 6 - is Bryant a significantly better and more impactful defender than Rudy?

Even considering the person doing it hasn’t actually watched hoops in 15 years it’s pretty brutal. Tough scene.

Exactly !!!!
It’s longevity stats .
Playing high level longer do not make a player Better just because he played longer .
Thx for saying it …..
Mj>LeBron .
Magic> stockton
Etc.

Jordan's Wizards days feel like GOT season 8.

Like wtf, that really happened?

Uneases me to think about those days.

He missed an open dunk at an all star game..

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The floppin goat .
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Always try find excuses

Curry is dimensions superior to Lebron.. He's actually skilled at basketball and not just an athlete.. The true goat of this era that changed the game and continues to win with inferior casts than Lebron needed to win.

What exactly is false?

Jordan was required to play 1st team defense for every chip, while Lebron wasn't required to be all-defense for half his chips and never carried the scoring burden anywhere near the level that MJ did

Lebron simply did much less on both sides of the ball because he played with more good defenders than Jordan and FAR more good scorers

Jordan played with Harper, Pippen Grant and Rodman - that's 4 good defenders, while Lebron played with dozens of good defenders such as Snow, Hughes, Zydrunas, Varejao, Mosgov, AD, Birdman, Haslem, Bosh, McGee, Vanderbilt, Rondo, Bradley and many more - it's not even close - you guys are just delusional and in denial about Lebron's obvious inferiority and far lower 2-way burden.