LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Pau is a bum, Penny greatness

Pippen, bum. Rodman, bum. Phil Jackson, mediocre. Spo, elite. This game is dumb.

Who cares who else is on the damn team? That line of thinking forces you to underrate whomever you want and overrate whomever you want just to make your argument. It's stupid and transparent.

This is where fallguy ignores MVP voting but exalts LOLDPOY and All-NBA Defense voting.

Ok I'm finally convinced you're either an epic troll, or gave some serious mental health issues.

He literally said that Magic/Lebron/Oscar/Luka/SGA didn't have diverse repertoires, lol

And I never realized LeBron was so bad because he couldn't win with Shaq. Now that I've learned that I also realize Jordan sucked caused he couldn't win when he had George Gervin, a guy with 25.1 PPG for his career! LeBron has never even played with a player who averages 25.1 PPG! And Gervin played 82 games that season. Jordan now confirmed trash.

That team only won 30 teams. No team with Lebron EVER won so few games.

Then a couple of years later he gets hall of famer Artis Gilmore.

Amongst players with completed careers, Gervin is 8th all time in PPG. He led the playoffs in PPG 6 times as well.

Well, Shaq was so bad that he needed Kobe to lift him up, but so great when he was old that LeBron should've won a chip with him.

TWOG said he hasn’t watched basketball since 2011

Nonetheless, the playoffs are being discussed extensively in the main NBA thread. Join us, it’s a good time.

Lol
Gervin played in the season mj was injured ….
In the playoffs , gervin played 2 games out of 3 with a total of 5 min in each game.
Ho yes they played together all right lol….
And retired right after…

Nice try tho.

How are you so unaware?

That was clearly mocking TWOG for unironically saying that LeBron should have won with Shaq, when Shaq was 38 years old and irrelevant.

Mvp as it’s fault too.
Twice Nash over shaq 1 ?
Really ?

That is why we take overall career to get rid of the outlier of some particular season.
All nba defence might be wrong sometimes but I doubt it’s wrong every time shrug.

Ok so let's just debate LeBron vs Kareem then. Everyone else is irrelevant.

In that case take an example where he actually played with the guy ?
I mean Shaq did play with Lebron right ?

Why ?
U think a 13-15 years career is irrelevant?
You think magic is irrelevant?

FWIW , longevity do not make a player actually better .
It just mean he played at a good level longer .
So what ?
I’ll take the guy that did more and won more in less years .
If someone played longer and can’t accomplish more it do not translate to me being better .

I will never put Stockton over magic shrug .
And those kind of example can be made all over .
I’m just not in the mood to search for them .

Robert Parrish (4 title in 21 years) > wilt (2 title in 14 years ) ?

You're still missing the point. Old Shaq and old Gervin were both irrelevant.

Probably better to look at the distribution of seasons across a player’s prime. Eliminates single outlier seasons but also doesn’t factor in when players were young and inexperienced nor old and irrelevant. This assumes GOAT = best player when they were at their best and I think that’s how most ppl think of it.

For example if Wemby or someone somehow puts up a few seasons of really efficient 40/15 with low turnovers and a ton of blocks and they 3-peat he would be GOAT even if he retired by 27. Just making up numbers but you get the idea.

Kareem playing a long time is great but him averaging 10 ppg at 41 doesn’t factor into his GOAT status.

People can say that longevity doesn't factor, and the MJ side has to say that and believe it. I would suggest it's naive to think that LeBron still playing at this level as a 39 year old isn't moving perceptions. The Athletic player poll has a very clear trend with respondents choosing LBJ directly saying that watching him keep going is influencing them into changing their vote.

Maybe if LeBron tacks on some Chris Carter sub replacement level seasons, they won't count. But every All Nba level season matters to this conversation, you can believe that.

If Wemby dominates through ~27 and then suffers a career-ending injury, people would assign him GOAT peak, or 'best player I ever seen'. But he wouldn't be the GOAT.

We can debate 'I think that's how most people think about it' but it's not 'all people', and far from it.

Everything LeBron is doing now is impressive. I just don't think it catches him up to MJ.

And that's fair, it depends on how far the gap was for people in 2016. For the cohort who closed the book on it in 2011, he could be All Nba at 49 and it wouldn't matter. But most people don't live on the extremes, and him going this long is changing minds, even if you think that's unfair.

Add more JJ Redick types to media in coming years and then the documentary and associated content. This matter shall remain in dispute. 😀

Jordan's career is basically 11 seasons. His Wizards comeback adds nothing of value.

If Jordan had played a proper career, I'd give his GOAT case more credibility. But 2 premature retirements definitely should harm his case.

I don’t deny some people think longevity is really important but how many people do you know who rank Stockton higher in the GOAT PG list than Magic? Like that is the textbook situation of longevity vs peak.

And if Wemby puts up 50 ppg next year on like 70% TS and almost no turnovers and other equally ridiculous stats. Spurs win 75 games and sweep the playoffs. How many people do you think would go “hmmm yeah he’s good but he needs to do this till he is 40”?

I’ve actually considered doing this.

Awful analogy. Stockton's peak was never close to Magic's. Lebron's and Jordan's are close and huge argument that Lebron's is better.

And re Wemby - no of course not but equally if he has that season and then averages 15ppg on 45% TS for a decade more nobody will have him in the GOAT conversation.

No idea why Jordan stans feel the need to operate like this.

Umm, it sounds like you actually agree with me that if a player’s peak is higher, then longevity does not mean a whole lot? You’ve just completely changed the analogy into something that doesn’t make any sense. If a player averages 50 ppg at 70% TS one season and then 15ppg at 45% the next he probably had a leg amputated and yes he’d still be in the GOAT convo for averaging 15 ppg on one leg.

And then we have Magic who played for 13 seasons and Stockton who played for 19. 6 more seasons.

LeBron has currently played 6 more seasons than Jordan.

Magic’s peak season VORP was 8.9. Stockton 8.3. +0.6

Jordan peak season VORP 12.5. LeBron 11.8. +0.7

Yeah man totally ridiculous analogy I can’t believe Jordan stans would stoop to such a level.

Talk about ironic ��. No need to get so emotional so fast.

LeBron has had 20 legit all star type seasons.

Jordan had 11.

Glad you think David Robinson is the 3rd best basketball player of all time, Nikola Jokic fourth, and *checks notes* Kevin Garnett fifth and Chris Paul sixth.
Single season and only measuring by VORP to define peak in this discussion is an interesting methodology.