LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Not once did I say I was ranking players by single season VORP. Do you understand that using statistics to give a rough approximation of player value is not the same as strictly ranking them? If you do understand that, do you think you can be honest in your next post?

Yes though, unironically all those players you mentioned have had some of the best individual peaks of all time. Ironically, it’s interesting that LeBron fans are all about the aNaLyticZ and advanced stats until they don’t go in their favor.

There is plenty of error and uncertainty in these all in one stats. And outlier seasons (Robinson). So no you can’t get a perfect ordered ranking.

But yes statistics and quantitative numbers are a pretty good way of getting an unbiased approximation of player value.

Actually, you know what? I just noticed that you never provided your methodology to rank Magic >> Stockton. Interesting. Could you show how you determined that?

In before “yeah well Jordan’s dad was murdered and he likes to gamble and the 90’s NBA was all plumbers and porn stars and wow Jordan fans must have bad jobs and family dynamics TWOG made some posts we didn’t like hmmm don’t you think we should ban him”.

Intermixed with a few “LeBron never played with any good players” and “omg Jordan stans always say he never played with any good players they’re so dishonest”.

Yeah this thread isn’t repetitive at all.

Career achievement versus peak greatness is a thing ... and a quantitative analysis goes to LeBron, by now for sure. Having trouble finding the post where I made O/U's on all Bron stats for this season and one or two people took the sides. Would like to see how they did playing those props. Anyway, obviously there is no comparison between Bron's 21st season and anybody else's anywhere near that longevity obviously. Salute. Amazing.

Man, I took the Lakers +2.5 games in this series and blow a 20 point lead crucial to the bet.

The Lakers lost in the finals the year they got Pau

Don't forget getting swept by Dallas in 2011.

Yep, unbeatable.

I'm speaking that way to make a point - Kobe mostly won with 1 star teammate, while Lebron needed an extra star and mostly lost.

Kobe mostly won with a "normal" cast of 1 franchise player and a secondary producer at sidekick, while Lebron mostly lost with multiple franchise players as teammates.. He achieved superior casts than the "normal" 1 franchise player model by teaming up with opposing franchise players via "decision".

History shows that organic winners like Jokic, Curry, Kobe, MJ and Giannis achieved organic juggernauts by Year 7 with "normal" casts that included 1 franchise player and a secondary-producing, non-franchise sidekick like Klay, Middleton, Pippen, Pau or Murray.. Lebron was on this track in 2010 but gave up on the chemistry learning curve (organic) and opted for all-star team strategy thereafter (talent-based winning).. So he never really learned how to win (chemistry, organic) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning)..

Lebron's inability to develop great chemistry is skillset-based.. i.e. lack of expert jumpshooting skill and instinct to play off teammates (off-ball) yields an abnormal reliance on ball-dominance for his size/position - this ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).. Indeed, his teammates see lower assists and higher assisted rate (play-finishing) alongside Lebron, so it's statistical fact that Lebron's ball-dominant style turns teammates into spot-up shooter.
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List of scorers that most people view as "better scorers" than Lebron and at least partly backed up by prime scoring rates in RS, PO and/or Finals:

Elgin Baylor
Jerry West
Wilt
Kareem
KD
MJ
Kobe
Curry
Jokic
Embiid
Luka
Shaq
Bird
Harden
Barry

the "goat" is borderline top 20 scorer AT BEST??... lmao.. LeStiffArm

Lol Embid. 433 games played through age 29.

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2010 Kobe........ 21 PER..... 4.1 BPM
2010 Wade....... 28 PER..... 9.2 BPM

* Wade was #2 across the board in 2010 (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), aka the #2 producer in the league

Kobe was obviously past his prime in 2010 or 2011 - Wade was far better in those years

But even though Kobe was past his prime, he still outplayed Lebron against the same comp in those years (10' Celtics, 11' Mavs), just like he outplayed Lebron against the same comp in 08' (08' Celtics) and destroyed the 08' Spurs, while Lebron was locked up and swept in 07'.

Prime Kobe mostly won with 1 star teammate, while prime Lebron needed an extra star and mostly lost.

Kobe mostly won with a "normal" cast of 1 franchise player and a secondary producer at sidekick, while Lebron mostly lost with multiple franchise players as teammates.. He achieved superior casts than the traditional 1 franchise player model by teaming up with multiple opposing franchise players via "decision" or heist (AD).

History shows that organic winners like Jokic, Curry, Kobe, MJ and Giannis achieved organic juggernauts by Year 7 with "normal" casts that included 1 franchise player and a secondary-producing, non-franchise sidekick like Klay, Middleton, Pippen, Pau or Murray.. Lebron was on this track in 2010 but gave up on the chemistry learning curve (organic) and opted for all-star team strategy thereafter (talent-based winning).. So he never really learned how to win (chemistry, organic) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning)..

Lebron's inability to develop great chemistry is skillset-based.. i.e. lack of expert jumpshooting skill and instinct to play off teammates (off-ball) yields an abnormal reliance on ball-dominance for his size/position - this ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).. Indeed, his teammates see lower assists and higher assisted rate (play-finishing) alongside Lebron, so it's statistical fact that Lebron's ball-dominant style turns teammates into spot-up shooter.

It's obvious that he reached a higher level of scoring dominance than Lebron ever did, regardless of whether his career is short.. If Mr. 70 points shows up against peak Lebron, it's clear who the superior scorer is.... And not every 70 point scorer is goat-level, but Embiid clearly is on that top level - he isn't Devin Booker.

Btw, I could've included Iverson in there.

Embids career is basically just a bunch of potential that hasn't been reached. He's played with plenty of star teammates too and has yet to make it to the finals.

Why didn't you throw in Tracy McGrady while you were at it? Or just basically any player that had 1 or 2 high scoring seasons. Cool story bro.

I remember Kobe getting stacked teams of Pau, Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Ron Arest, and your favorite Antawn Jamison and barely squeezing into the playoffs.

Kobe was slightly past his prime from 2010 onwards

This is common knowledge

Anything after that is like Lebron having this stacked Laker team and still losing like they are now.. Sure Lebron gets his longevity props because he's older now than 2011 Kobe, but the point is that Kobe was past his prime in 2011 in a similar way that Lebron is now.

The bottom line is that Kobe would never lose with Bosh and Wade since he was a winner with just Pau (who is arguably < Bosh).. The only way to accurately compare the casts of Lebron and Kobe is to add a Wade-level player to Pau, since that's what Lebron had with Bosh and Wade.. And then give Kobe like Dale Ellis or something to offset the addition of Ray Allen..

So Lebron's cast was far superior, yet he won less frequently or in worse ways (upset or record loss) against similar comp - Lebron coming up short against mini-Jordan (kobe) confirms that he's inferior to Jordan.
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Yo, I was saying FOR QUANTITY LeBron is GOAT-ish. In my opinion for quantity only and he is clearly not GOAT player, only a GOAT statistics chart.

It's very telling that all the people who are the Lebron or 'either' side respect both players, but all the people clearly on the Jordan side have to resort to making up an endless stream of insults and name calling towards LeBron. It's clear which side the adults are on.

[YOUTUBE]CGGqMIokE4w?si=Ne37ukjZcACrCsIr
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What? Both sides are terrible. Both think that their side is the only one making good posts.

FWIW I think the boss is on the MJ side (iirc).

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Statistical facts about Lebron's career

* #1 all-time in turnovers, missed shots and top 5 in missed FT's

* Inferior to Jordan at PPG, OREB, SPG, BPG, TO's, jumpshooting efficiency, FT efficiency, post, off-ball, clutch efficiency, game-winner efficiency, efficiency per possession (ortg), Finals win %, Playoff win %, regular season win %, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48

* 17 of 21 seasons were either lottery, 1st Round loss, sweep loss, record loss, upset loss or locked up in a loss

* 3 losses with 2 all-star teammates (11',14', 17') and 4 losses with favored talent/preseason favorites (11', 14', 15', 21')

* Less APG in playoffs than Jordan thru half their chips (pre-curry era)

* Zero all-defense for latter half of chips (no all-defense in his 30's/Curry era)

* Turns teammates into spot-up shooter (lowers their assists and increases their assisted rate)

* Zero young player development (zero young players increased from low producer to meaningful producer on his watch)

* Low assist teams

* Zero #1 offenses

* Worst championship record ever - lottery record on championship level with every cast (low team ceiling, aka low chemistry "Bron-ball)"

* Never carried weak help over top teams, aka never won a series vs top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from sidekick (zero carry-jobs vs top teams in 2 decades)

* 16 on 39% thru 3 games of 13' Finals and 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6, so it was another 2011 choke but Ray Allen forced Game 7.. Heat didn't win with Lebron on floor in that series (zero plus minus and negative net rating for Lebron)

* Always had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so he never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level)
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Isn't Kobe's career-high PER like 28?

If we're gonna argue with PER, let's do it wrt Kobe vs. LeBron.

LeBron's had eight season over 28, fwiw. Only five under 25 -- three of which were the last three seasons.

Kobe was under 25 all but three seasons

Kobe is 29th in career PER, behind Chris Paul, Kawhi Leonard, James Harden, Hakeem Olajuwon, Karl Malone, Yao Ming, etc

Exhibit 349 of TWOG trying to have it both ways.

LeBron is a bum for underachieving with Wade, who was better than Kobe, yet Kobe is the 2nd best player of all time.

LOL.

1 more L would be a sweep, and 12 straight vs the nugz. goat oat (joker, that is)

Kobe couldn't do anything with a peak 27 year old Dwight Howard, but LeBron takes 34 year old corpse Howard to a championship.