LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

I was a posting rookie in 2013 and hadn't researched or fleshed out my arguments.. So the Ray Allen shot hurt because I didn't know what was going on - I didn't have the bird's eye view that I would eventually develop

By 2016, I had developed a high level understanding of Lebron's game and predicted his career, so everything that happened was further evidence for arguments that I already made.. It was obvious the unprecedented help he needed to barely have any winning frequency at all - historic help to barely go 1/4 and get mostly blown away or embarrassed.. So the fact that Lebron and Kyrie have the same scoring average for their Finals career and Kyrie was the "closer" was not a surprise - that's what Bron-ball needs to have the lowest of winning frequencies, which means he's going to win one every blue moon and likely by teammate bailout... All of this was familiar by 2016.

Btw, you said that my posts are biased but it isn't biased to say that the Heat didn't win with Lebron on the floor in the 2013 Finals because it's statistical fact - he had a zero plus/minus in the 13 Finals and negative net rating... It isn't biased to say that he averaged 16 on 39% for the first 3 games and 23 on 43% thru 6 - this is a choke by any standard except Ray Allen gave him 2nd life.. It isn't biased to say that Lebron had an equal usage and scoring partner, which in theory attracts equal defensive attention, so Lebron never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level).. None of this is bias - it's the statistical record.

Even if we say that MJ had the "perfect situation", what's the excuse for Lebron winning less than Duncan, Kobe, and Magic, or less frequently than any top 10 candidate?

Since Lebron had a lot of supporting talent in his career, the lower winning frequency is due to his weaker brand of ball.. 2+2=4... Specifically, his lack of expert jumpshooting skill and the resulting ball-dominance yields weaker chemistry, lower ball movement/strategy/coaching, and zero young player development - zero single-digit rookies grew into meaningful producers on Lebron's watch because he imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.

Of course, MJ was "gifted" a 1st-year nobody coach in 1990, so he never had a HOF coach when he won his 1st title - he had a rookie coach with a little-known offense that barely allowed dribbling/stats..

So MJ had the "perfect situation" with a 1st-timer coach, an offense that barely allowed dribbling, zero rim protection or offensive bigs in a big-man league, and a team with no 3rd scoring option, while his 2nd option wasn't capable of hitting a big shot, elite APG, spacing, or "taking over" like other 90's sidekicks.. Shaq said that Pippen wasn't on scouting report, which makes sense since he was a transition player with low peak capability and no need to close out on him - just get back on defense to avoid transition dunk and you've stopped Pippen.

Whoops was thinking I was in the general NBA forum.

Just popping in to note that LeBron is in the midst of a record breaking 20th All NBA season at 39, lol TWOG

Which player provides more title equity?

Player A - capable of 3-peat win frequency during prime

Player B - low win frequency in prime but 3rd team All-NBA in Year 20

Luka/Lebron-ball skillset has weaker brand of ball (chemistry, strategic capacity/coaching, teammate development) and therefore needs more help to achieve lower team ceilings/Finals records..

Otoh, expert jumpshooters (Curry, MJ) allow the best chemistry and brand of ball, so they win more with less.. Their jumpshooting maintains ball movement at high scoring volumes, so they effectively carry the scoring load against top teams and win with less scoring help like Wiggins or Pippen (non-franchise players).. This contrasts with ball-dominators that can't carry the scoring load as well against top teams (too-ball-dominant), thereby needing franchise players at sidekick to adequately offset the ball-dominance (Kareem, Wade, AD, Kyrie).

History clearly demonstrates this dynamic - Nick Wright swore up and down that Wiggins was a very BAD player ([url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lp0A76li7Q]here[/url]), so there's no way he thought Lebron could win with Wiggins.... yet Curry did, so this is a clear indication that he's superior - his superior brand/skillset wins with less (wins with "bums" according to Wright)..

Lol…
First season KAJ -> 28ppg, 14 rbn, 4 assist . At 22 years old .
It’s obvious with those stats he couldn’t join the nba sooner right ?
If only he was allowed too…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_high...

I mean Kareem is #3 all time, and if the only goal was to max career title equity and Jordan still retires multiple times and you get a bunch of extra Kareem years, he's #2 behind Bron

Man putting Wiggins and Pippen in the same tier is next level delusion

Probably been covered but pretty sure I saw that beyond the 20th season 7.4 points and 3 boards per game is the GOAT season pre-LeBron. He's got that edged by a bit. I guess LeBron is the new Brady. Of course Tom didn't need much athleticism, which is the amazing part for Bron. Too bad in a way Kareem didn't get 3 or 4 more peak type seasons at the beginning on the subject of freaky longevity. Those two seem to be head and shoulders above in hoops in relentlessness.

Kareem had longevity and points and other stats over MJ already .
Mj was still considered over KAJ .
No idea why LeBron should be considered any different then KAJ with even less title, mvp etc then kareem shrug .
While kareem kept playing at insane pace at 78+ games in regular season btw with long run winning title at 39 and 40 years old ..:.not missing 30 games in regular season for the playoffs like some other dubious goat …

I rather have AA 12 times then TT 20 times for equity purpose.

Not every hand is all-in preflop though. Gotta think about flop textures, position, playability. And that is where LeBron >>> Jordan.

Spoiler

Show

Also the other thing that happened since I last posted was MJ sold the Hornets, ending his tenure as one of the worst ever sports team owners in American sports history.

Does anyone else see hilarity in the juxtaposition of the Last Dance narrative (never lose a practice, the relentless competitor) with his Wizards finale or his Hornets ownership? His will to win was all packed into a very specific portion of his life, when he had all the right pieces around him.

Maybe LeBron has some really bad seasons to come and a terrible ownership tenure, etc. We'll see.

Well u can’t pick flop but u can pick hands u play !
I take 12 times AA every time over 20 times TT pf (pre season) .
All in or not !

And please don’t tell me for years the nba of today is harder to play …

1985 to 2004-> 8 60pts games scored by a player.
Last 13 months -> 9 60 pts games scored by a player.
Ps: I didn’t reader he but saw a post about that , probably true.

Seeing mj in todays game would be scary , 40 ppg easy

.

1st Year Horry........... starter
1st Year Pippen......... bench

2nd Year Horry.......... 2nd option on champion (clutch)
2nd Year Pippen........ horrible player

3rd Year Horry........... higher gamescore in 95' Finals than any of Pippen's Finals, historic clutch shot-maker
3rd Year Pippen......... epic "migraine" choke cost Bulls title

CONCLUSION: jordan would've won earlier with Horry than he did with Pippen

* Pippen was a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg

* Wiggins was 19-year old (#1 pick) that averaged 17-24 ppg immediately

CONCLUSION: the teenager Wiggins had more raw talent for MJ to develop than scrawny Pippen who was literally garbage into his mid-20's..

In the 2022 Finals, Wiggins had a signature lockdown performance as the primary defender, which Pippen never had.. Pippen was mostly destroyed by opposing SF's and never had a primary defender lockdown like Wiggins had on Tatum (who was red-hot until he ran into Wiggins)..

In addition to playing "pippen-like" defense, Wiggins played better than Pippen ever did offensively by being the kind of go-to player and big shot maker that Pippen never was (transition player).. The 2022 season confirmed that MJ would've won easier and EARLIER with wiggins than pippen - this is the case if you replaced Pippen with tons of guys that didn't need the massive development that Pippen did.

The only reason Pippen became anything at all is because he landed alongside MJ and a system that coddled weak iso players.. He was worse than prime Jeff Green outside the system - this is historical fact.. It's interesting because Wiggins is a great example of a decent player getting elevated by a goat offensive player and system (Curry) just like Pippen was elevated by Jordan and the triangle.. Ultimately, Pippen was a Wiggins, Igoudala or Larry Nance-level player that the winning spotlight inflated to all-time status and extra media accolade.. No one was statistically-carried more or benefitted from the winning spotlight more than Pippen (most overrated player of all-time).

.

DPOY VOTING

1988...... MJ (1st)...... Pip (none)
1989...... MJ (5th)...... Pip (none)
1990...... MJ (5th)...... Pip (none)
1991...... MJ (7th)...... Pip (7th)
1992...... MJ (3rd)...... Pip (3rd)
1993...... MJ (2nd)..... Pip (none)
1996...... MJ (5th)...... Pip (2nd)
1997...... MJ (5th)...... Pip (4th)
1998...... MJ (4th)...... Pip (9th)

In addition to be recognized as the Bulls' best defender, MJ carried the scoring load more than anyone ever has (faced max defensive attention more than anyone ever has), while leading the Bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen (3 titles runs in 91', 93', 97)

PLAYOFFS

85-93' Jordan......... 35/7/7 (6.6 APG)
06-14' Lebron........ 28/8/6 (6.4 APG)

So Lebron passed less than MJ for the first half of their chips and wasn't required to be a good defender for the other half (no all-defense in his 30's).

TLDR: Jordan did far more to win on both ends because he had less help

the "right pieces" forced MJ to lead the league in usage and scoring to win titles (unprecedented), while being DPOY-level every year..

you can say that "scoring help isn't everything", except it's the biggest kind of help that everyone in history needed.... except Jordan..

Specifically, everyone in history needed teammates to lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led all teammates by 10-30 in every SERIES.. So only the GOAT didn't need great scoring help.

So it's no big deal that MJ led everyone by 10-30 in every series, while everyone else in history needed teammates to lead for entire playoff runs?.. Don't be absurd.. MJ won with the least as the stats show - that's why he's GOAT.. Pippen is only considered a "good piece" because MJ was good enough to drag his 19 on 42% to 6 Finals wins - no one else won multiple Finals with that crap.

anyone that is scoring champ + top 5 DPOY for 10 straight years will win a bunch of titles regardless of cast - MJ is the only guy to reach this 2-way level of domination... When Hakeem won DPOY, he averaged the most ppg ever for a DPOY (27 and DPOY), except MJ was far superior (35 and DPOY).. that's how much better MJ was than anyone, which is why he won with less all-star help and his all-star had low peak capability (system player)

Lebron's team offense has never been the best brand of ball like the Spurs, Warriors or Nuggets, aka zippy ball movement

Instead, Lebron's style is a variation of Luka-ball and simpleton ball-domination, so he has a lottery record in the playoffs against the aforementioned superior brands

He has sweep or record losses to each of these brands despite being the preseason favorite in 14', 17' or 23' - so his favored talent gets beat by superior brand of ball - it's intuitive.. And it's the opposite of what you said - bron-ball is "bull in china shop", while mj and curry's expert jumpshooting skill is the swiss army knife that adjusts to any teammate of system/coach..

history shows that lebron is basically uncoachable and the coach is forced to put the ball in his hands and run an inferior offense to the Spurs, Warriors or Nuggets.. Or Mavs or Magic.. All these teams beat lebron with zippy ball movement and "getting hot" by being so fresh defending his plodding ball-domination (winning attrition battle).

kareem and lebron would have to play 100 seasons to get to 6 chips with 1 all-star teammate - they already played 40+ and never won a single chip like that.. and the reason is because they can't even get 27 ppg and DPOY like Hakeem, let alone 35 and DPOY like MJ's capability.. They're just vastly inferior players, so they needed tons and tons more help to win far less frequently and have many really bad losses in their prime (while MJ was invincible in his prime the instant he had a low-scoring all-star teammate)

Their lower win frequency in their prime gives them less title equity overall because they aren't winning as the best player later in their careers especially kareem.. of course if you told mj as a rookie that fans would be distorting his resume 30 years later, he would've just played all the way through 94', 95' and 99-03' or so.. put all the records to bed with 8-11 chips or so all-time points record.

There are many ways to demonstrate Jordan's greatness - people used to say that 8 straight chips by Russell was only due to the old-fashioned era but then Jordan showed the 8 straight was extremely possible in the modern era and he would've been favored to do it if he never retired to play baseball.. that's how great he was and lebron is nowhere near on so many levels.. he would never retire to play NFL - he's a rule-follower that pays media to lie for him - he isn't a gambler that takes real risks.. he's a p*ssy and many people feel this way

Lebron isn't playing better than 2002 Jordan before Jordan's injury in Game 46.. Up until then, Jordan was 1 of 3 guys averaging 25/5/5 and that was when teams were allowing 20 less ppg.. He had a bunch of 40 or 50 point games and 3 game-winners.. that's as good as current Lebron and better.... After the injury, MJ limped around for a dozen more games or so and then sat out the last 20 games - his PER and WS were still close to current Lebron despite the fall-off from the last 15 games of injured play.

And these other posters itt don't realize that around 50% of perimeter players in the NBA could average 25/7/7 if they had the 100% green light and winning wasn't a consideration.

that's how easy today's game is

lebron is just doing what most perimeter players could do if they were in his shoes with the green light and losing wouldn't be blamed on them ever.. meanwhile the ball-domination and offensive stagnation required to get Lebron 25/7/7 is greater than any other time in his career, so he's losing more than ever before given the talent level on his team.. He's a cancerous player right now and it's exacerbated by his style of play (spotty jumpshooting and resulting ball-dominance)

Which only proves my point.

These sound like random corporate jobs? What am I missing here?

Funny how we quickly went from:

to

If you were still in your athletic prime, what do you think you could average in today's NBA?

AA is actually a great analogy for Lebron - AA unimproved is often good enough to win or at least get to showdown but is very often the second best hand multiway without help. MJ is more like 76s - needs a ton of help and leads to a lot of early folds, but when you get there, you often have the nuts or close.

MJ slurpers are like people that argue that some random other hand preflop is better than AA because they happened to get the cards they need and the result is all that matters.

I like it but I've got MJ as A-A and LeBron as K-K (not 10-10). Now which is better total equity in 20 versus 12 runs??

Well fwiw I wouldn’t lost so much with KK compare with AA.
I would at the very least break even .
In term of equity I would rather put magic at KK in championship equity ….
Or KAJ then LeBron .

As before I'm still counting Kareem's college career in this. It's about GOAT hoops player, not just NBA. So ABA counts a little, college counts a little, international counts a little, NBA counts a lot. Some of the players who benefit most from this are Kareem, Walton, Jordan, Olajuwon, Ewing, Russell, Oscar, Maravich, Issel, Gilmore, Bird, Ewing, Baylor, Dr. J. Who else? Chamberlain slides a bit on this scale as you are adding 3 or 4 years for some, one+ for Wilt. Jokic and Durant are works in progress.

Moving up on the very short list counting this are Kareem, Jordan, Olajuwon, Bird, Oscar. I think it can put Kareem over the top into #1. Jordan 2, LeBron 3, Chamberlain 4.

(Was looking this up and Chamberlain went to final game of course his soph year, losing slow down game in triple OT, but oddly didn't win the conference his junior year. It was a brutal bugaboo of 2-point losses in slow down games, 6 of his 8 career college losses, apparently out with illness in 3 of them, that kept them out of the tournament, losing the conference to K-State who was #1 in the country but whom KU and Chamberlain routed in the last regular season game. Different days.)