LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Lebron won 2 in 4 with that Miami cast - that's the BEST he's ever done with a cast, smh.. He never proved that he could mostly win for a stretch like Duncan winning 3 in 5 years, or Curry won 3 in 4, or Jordan won 6 in 7 - that's mostly winning and having dominant dynasties, while 21 years confirms that Lebron isn't capable of mostly winning with any cast or having a dynasty or 3-peat with any cast, aka objectively inferior to MJ.
Lebron won 3 in 5 years (12, 13, 16), while finishing 2nd the other 2 years. That's a better 5-year stretch than MJ ever managed (the most he won in a 5-year stretch is 3 titles and obviously he never got to the Finals in the other two years in any 5 year stretch that includes 3 titles) and also better than Duncan's best 5 year stretch (3 titles in 5 years, but only got to conference semi's the other 2 years. Only Curry can match this (3 titles in 5 years with 2 other Finals appearances).
Also, sounds like no one answered this:
Either way, how many regular season NBA games do you think MJ missed because he played minor league baseball? The answer might surprise you.
The answer is 9 games. In other words, MJ didn't miss a season and half of NBA basketball primarily because of baseball - he missed them primarily because he didn't want to play basketball.
Before Phil arrived, MJ was already nearly beating the Bad Boys and only lost the 89' ECF because Pippen effectively missed Games 5 and 6.
People don't realize that Pippen's first "migraines" were in the 89' ECF, not 1990.. Phil's loss in 1990 was excused due to the "migraine", but Collins actually experienced a far worse version of Pippen in 89' and got fired.
Regarding off-ball - MJ was always off-ball, which is why Phil thought the triangle could work in the first place - he thought that MJ's
Honest question: should Pippen, Phil, and Rodman be in the Hall of Fame?
And Lebron wasn't the 1st option in 2020, although some people would debate that, just like people debate Kobe/Shaq in 01' and 02'.
When the actual scoring of both guys is close and within a few PPG, it could go either way - both guys have stretches of being "that guy" and taking over the game.
Regardless, this kind of tag team and equal scoring loads is nowhere near MJ, who always carried the scoring load at an unprecedented GOAT level, while playing GOAT defense too.
Btw, in the 2001 and 2002 WCF
That was nice of you to give it to Shaq the year he was 1 vote away from being the unanimous MVP.
2001 - Shaq 3rd MVP. Kobe 9th. 578 votes to 11.
2002 - Shaq 3rd, Kobe 5th. 696 votes to 98.
Any other interpretation than Shaq was the man for the Lakers 3-peat is dumb.
MJ's baseball career was also cool because we got to find out that MJ's a great athlete, but not that great:
https://blog.29sunset.com/2020/05/how-fa...
Even without knowing precisely how many feet he covered in his trek from home to third that fall night in 1994, I think it’s fair to say that at age 31, Michael Jordan would be among the faster half of today’s Major League Baseball players, and one of the four or five fastest players 6-foot-4 or taller.
You can compare that extrapolated sprint speed to players from the 2019 Statcast leaderboard, and see it matches up with guys like Jonathan Villar, Mookie Betts, Ketel Marte… and Aaron Judge and Kris Bryant. If you’re generous, you could bump Jordan up a tier so he’s there with Christian Yelich, Javy Baez and Adam Eaton. And if you’re extra generous and squint a bit, you could see him being as fast as guys like Manny Margot, Fernando Tatis, Jr., or Brett Gardner. He wasn’t nearly as fast as Trea Turner, Byron Buxton, or Billy Hamilton. Give him extra credit for being that fast 25 years ago, when he would’ve smoked guys like Jim Thome in a footrace, but at the same time I think we can be sure he would not have been among the elite fastest guys.
Also more on young MJ:
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/4w...
Magic quote on Michael, emphasis added:
"The main reason I'm disappointed in the young people in this league is because they look at Michael and they don't understand him. They see the greatest, but they don't know why he was so great. They miss the point. They don't remember or realize that when he first came into the league all he did was drive and dunk on everybody. He worked hard to add a jumpshot, the three-point shot, the post-up moves, the passing, the defense, and the leadership. There are so many guys in the league who don't understand the progression of his greatness. They don't realize that he evolved into what he is now through hard work and tremendous dedication."
No idea where/when/if Magic said this about MJ but this matches up with my recollection and also sounds like Magic.
Lebron won 3 in 5 years (12, 13, 16), while finishing 2nd the other 2 years. That's a better 5-year stretch than MJ ever managed (the most he won in a 5-year stretch is 3 titles and obviously he never got to the Finals in the other two years in any 5 year stretch that includes 3 titles)
To avoid an arbitrary cutoff, we can use a point system and look at this for best N-year stretches for each player:
6 for championship
4 for conference championship
2 for conference finals appearance
1 for conference semis appearance
Best 3 year stretch
MJ: 18
Lebron 16
Best 4 year stretch
MJ: 20
Lebron: 20
Best 5 year stretch
MJ: 22
Lebron: 26
Best 6 year stretch
MJ: 25
Lebron: 30
Best 7 year stretch
MJ: 31
Lebron: 34
Best 8 year stretch
MJ: 37
Lebron: 38
Even considering that the point system is somewhat arbitrary, doesn't really seem like MJ has a clear edge here. Lebron having an arguably better 8-year stretch than MJ is kind of nuts given that this was across 2 different teams and 3 different coaches, not to mention all kinds of injuries to his star teammates, playing against KD + Curry, etc.
Here's Inside the NBA talking about how the down-hill style is solvable and not 5-man basketball:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kEx6NQjxx3...
Kenny and Charles agreed with him.. Robert Horry recently said the same thing about Lebron's game... Rashad McCants, Ric Bucher, and others are also on board... Everyone is coming around to the fact that Lebron doesn't need more help - he just needs to improve chemistry, fits and brand of ball..
I've said this for a decade and now finally everyone realizes it.. Teams win games based on talent AND chemistry - both are equally important and I would venture to say chemistry is actually quite a bit more important... For example, any top 20 all-time player will have an organic juggernaut after 6 or 7 seasons almost regardless of cast.. We saw this with Curry, MJ, Jokic and yes, even Lebron in 2010 - he had an organic juggernaut with a "normal" cast of 1 franchise player.. The difference is that he gave up on developing the chemistry required to win with 1 franchise player and "decided" to put 3 franchise guys on 1 team (super-team)..
But his brand still mostly lost - his brand isn't capable of great, all-time teams.. 21 years confirms this, along additional years coming from Luka, SGA, Westbrook, Harden - the modern player has a horrific, losing brand of ball.. Accordingly, the modern player is a loser that lacks the brand of ball to succeed in prior eras, and prior eras also didn't have the spacing that today's "down-hill" skillset requires.
And nobody understands what it takes to win at the pro game like Rashad McCants
There's no cast that Lebron mostly won with - he isn't capable of mostly winning with any cast and will mostly lose with every cast, aka 1/4 with AD, Love or Wade (except the Allen miracle)
Otoh, Curry won 3 in 4 years with the Warriors, or MJ won 6 in 7 with the Bulls, or Duncan won 3 in 5 with the Spurs.... Lebron is incapable of this and will mostly lose everywhere he goes.
Shaq's 2000 run rubs off on 01' and 02' but both guys were "the man" in 01' and 02' - it was a shared load, and it was clearly Kobe-ball against the best team (Spurs)
regardless, the point is that Kobe won with Pau and turned Pau from a 1x all-star into perennial All-NBA, while Lebron reduced Love and Bosh and had weaker teams with them at 3rd option than Kobe had with Pau at 2nd option..
It's clear as day - Kobe's scoring diversity fosters better chemistry that yields teammate elevation and better teams.. The story with Lebron is always how teammates played badly, while Kobe elevated teammates via superior chemistry that his skillset allowed.
I listed a bunch of guys, not just McCants... Rich Bucher agreed... Or Kenny Smith and Barkley... And obvious, Horry knows what it takes to win:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byQH6Sb4...
"that's not winning basketball"
again, everyone is waking up to what I've known for a decade (down-hill style isn't 5-man basketball and prevents the great chemistry that allows great-performing cast, aka great team).. finally we have an explanation for why Lebron's teammates always play poorly and disappoint - it turns out that casts play great with great chemistry, and Lebron's skillset prevents this chemistry..
Twog, so all of your points have already been refuted and it's getting boring here, so let's actually get to the point. How would you compare yourself to Ant from an athletic and basketball perspective? It seems to me that you think you had all of those attributes Ant lacks - you're using MJ as a stand-in, but doesn't that apply to yourself as well? Maybe you could've been even better in today's game, against lesser competition, just didn't have the same opportunity?
I guarantee that I'm a far superior post and mid-range player that would require a double -team when they're guarding me.
Ultimately, I have all the same advantages over Shaq's softie sons that previous eras have over today's players - superior toughness, mentality, competitiveness, fundamentals, touch, instinct, post, feetwork, mid-range, and go-to moves.
Would this apply to you vs Ant?
Also, what do you think is your brand of basketball? Would you be able to be a good leader and lift everyone up like you imagine MJ did?
Also more on young MJ:
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/4w...
No idea where/when/if Magic said this about MJ but this matches up with my recollection and also sounds like Magic.
yes, tons of guys hated on MJ early on and said he shot too much, but he proved everyone wrong by winning titles by shooting and scoring just as much.. and it turns out that everyone grew by leaps and bounds alongside him and had great fits, while developing the best 2-point jumpshot by 1987.
But again, he was incorrectly knocked early on and had to prove everyone wrong - he was already doing this by 88', and of course the historic 89' run with upsets in every round and nearly beat the Bad Boys with no help.. The Bulls were the only team to win any games off the Pistons in the 89' Playoffs and they had a real chance to beat them if Pippen doesn't quit in Games 5 and 6 - he played 1 minute in Game 6.
You haven't refuted anything... Lebron frequently has bad chemistry with a wide range of teammates - this is a historical fact based on bad fits with Bosh, Love, Ingram, Westbrook, Wade, Hughes, Jamison, and more.
And the reason Lebron has bad chemistry is because his skillset is a down-hill skillset that isn't 5-man basketball, so he isn't capable of fostering the great chemistry that allows a great-performing cast, aka great team.. Since he lacks the skill to foster chemistry, he always "need more help".. But regardless of who we surround him with, his skillset isn't capable of mostly winning and he mostly loses with every cast.
This hasn't been refuted because it's literally the historical record.. There are DATES associated with all these things, such as Love cratering in 2015, or the bad fit with Ingram or Westbrook in 2019 or 2022, respectively.
Better than Ant's...
The modern player is a "down-hill" player, which isn't 5-man basketball, so it isn't just me that has better brand of ball than Ant... It's anybody that came up in prior eras before the "down-hill" skillset (weak brand) became a primary strategy.. In my day, the "down-hill" approach was used frequently but not the primary strategy.. It's absurd to make it the primary strategy unless you want a low team ceiling and perennial frustration/losing.
Ultimately, the modern player is a loser that lacks the brand of ball to succeed in prior eras, and prior eras also didn't have the spacing that today's "down-hill" skillset requires.
.
See this is why I crap on Pippen
Cowherd:
"Once they get Ant a great running mate - his "pippen" - watch out"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNQlR81j...
So KAT, Gobert, McDaniels and the most length in the league isn't enough?.. Ant needs this mythical "pippen" to save him?... A 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg?... wtf is Colin talking about?
The excuse for anyone not achieving Jordan's caliber of winning is that they didn't have their "pippen", which implies that Pippen is a shaq-like savior instead of the guy getting saved and carried statistically.. Pippen is just the guy that happens to be there when Ant wins - that's what a "pippen" is - and it's Ant's job to carry this pippen the same way Jordan did, which means carrying KAT's 18 ppg and weak mentality the same way MJ carried Pippen's..
Colin and the Lebron media are just fraudsters and creating false narratives to deflate Jordan's goat winning achievement.. The problem is that they actually believe this crap - they actually think Pippen is a top 30 all-timer instead of inferior to Larry Nance and never even reaching the peak impact of an Andre Igoudala.
tbh, opponents that were in the league and facing Jordan - they never trashed Jordan - it was just the media trying to explain why a guy that appears to be better than Magic or Bird isn't winning like they were.. the media concluded that he scored too much and would never win as scoring champ or by scoring those amounts... They were obviously wrong... By 1990, MJ had won MVP and had a significant history of developing teammates such as Woolridge, Oakley, Sam Vincent, Grant and Pippen - all of these guys grew by leaps and bounds alongside MJ, while literally zero young players grew into meaningful producers on Lebron's watch.. Ultimately, Lebron's down-hill skillset imposes spot-up roles that prevents the elite chemistry needed for a great-performing cast, aka great teams.. Since he can't foster great chemistry, he always needs "more help" - it's the story of his career.
That's all you got? So sounds like you're admitting that you're athletically inferior to modern players? And also that you were far less skilled than modern players like Ant? All you got is some "brand of ball" but wouldn't be able to hang against modern players like Ant?
tbh, opponents that were in the league and facing Jordan - they never trashed Jordan - it was just the media trying to explain why a guy that appears to be better than Magic or Bird isn't winning like they were.. the media concluded that he scored too much and would never win as scoring champ or by scoring those amounts... They were obviously wrong... By 1990, MJ had won MVP and had a significant history of developing teammates such as Woolridge, Oakley, Sam Vincent, Grant and Pippen - all of th
Are you having trouble reading again? What did Magic say about MJ's progression? What does that say about young MJ?
lol "shaq-like savior"
Way to slip that jab in at the greatest post-Magic Laker of all-time.
Are you having trouble reading again? What did Magic say about MJ's progression? What does that say about young MJ?
it was a reddit - not a real source so i haven't read it - i just know that Magic never trashed Jordan
it's funny because there's this false narrative about the 4th quarter of Game 5 in the 91' Finals - apparently that was when Phil finally taught Jordan how to pass by telling him that "Paxson is open"
however, that was just x's and o's - nothing more - Mike Malone will tell Jokic or Murray that "X player will be open here" - it's standard x's and o's that were blown up into a false narrative by the media...
MJ was already averaging 11 assists in that series before Game 5 and he averaged 6 assists from day 1 in the NBA - every teammate grew by leaps and bounds alongside him - there was never a period where teammates weren't growing and chemistry wasn't improving - he nearly beat the champs in 89' with nothing.. Give Jordan an all-star teammate in 1989 and he 3-peats with Doug Collins and Collins would be the HOF "goat coach", not Phil.
it's weird that MJ is the only player in history that "needed to make teammates better", while everyone else just needs more help.. When other guys lose, it's because they didn't have enough help, whereas MJ's losses were blamed on him not knowing how to play... it's just a false narrative that arose from jealousy - seeing someone score so much better than everyone else created a lot of false narratives.. MJ was a high assist and low turnover player from day 1.
Ultimately, Jordan simply needed a minimum amount of help to win and that help has been inflated beyond belief - he won 6 rings with no cast - if Lebron had Jordan's 3-peat casts, he would struggle to make the playoffs and everyone would say he needed more help.. The Bulls' cast was nothing compared to what Lebron needed to win.. The Bulls had zero rim protection, unathletic guards and no scoring help compared to the teams Lebron won with...
People will call bs but when did Lebron win as 1st option without 2 star teammates.. The one time that he won with just 1 star teammate, Lebron was 2nd option for that playoff run... And when did he beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick?... So how could he win with 15.7 on 34% from Pippen in the 96' Finals, or 19 on 42% for his Finals career?... Lebron needs guys to match him, such as Kyrie and Lebron both averaging 28 ppg for their Finals career.
.
lol "shaq-like savior"
Way to slip that jab in at the greatest post-Magic Laker of all-time.
Many people felt that Kobe/Shaq were on equal terms from 2001 onwards, so the shaq reference was meant to indicate that getting a "pippen" was like getting an equal partner of sorts.
But that isn't what Pippen was.... A "pippen" isn't an equal partner.. A "pippen" is a low producer and nowhere near the 1st option, just like KAT is nowhere near Ant statistically... So it's Ant's job to carry this pippen the same way Jordan did, which means carrying Ant's 18 ppg and weak mentality the same way MJ carried Pippen's.. That's what the "pippen" is - it's the guy getting carried.
.
On paper, Pippen and I have similar measurements.
This means that if you and I played, you would think I'm Pippen......
or Kobe.....
or MJ.....
you wouldn't be able to tell the difference because you never went within 10 feet of a ball in your life.. I'm sure one 6'7" dude smashing on you will feel the same as another 6'7" dude.
It's obvious you're trolling, but even the nature of your trolling indicates a very shallow understanding of basketball.
