GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

The top 10 all-time

It's a subjective mix of the best bigs and jumpshooters ever, since these skillsets (aka off-ball, higher assisted rates) allow the elite ball movement systems used by every dynasty (the best basketball).

Dynasties are teams that won 3 chips in 5 years (60's Celtics, 80's Lakers/Celtics, 90's Bulls, 00's Spurs, 10's Warriors) - the 1st option was always a big or jumpshooter (an off-ball player with higher assisted rates).

In contrast to the off-ball skillsets that fuel dynasty ball movement, primary ball-handlers were never the 1st option on dynasties because ball-dominance at high scoring levels hinders the aforementioned ball movement required of dynasties.. Since they can't be the 1st option for dynasties (the best basketball), primary ballhandlers can't be in the top 10.

Furthermore, we can expand the sample to include dominant title runs (1 loss average per round, 4 losses max) in addition to dynasties - the 1st option of every dominant title run was a big or jumpshooter just like the 1st option for dynasties.

Since the top 10 is a subjective mix of the best bigs and jumpshooters, a possible top 10 could be MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic

Thread Cliffs

Lebron isn't worthy of a goat debate because he can't play the best brand of ball, i.e. elite ball movement systems used by every dynasty (the best basketball).

His ball-dominant skillset actually lowers everyone's assists by increasing their spot-up role/assisted buckets.

Lebron's weaker brand of ball and chemistry is why he always needs more help and can't develop young players to win organically.. The weaker chemistry is also why he underperforms favored or good rosters compared what his peers do with similar rosters..

Lebron has non-winning records with preseason favorites (4-4), all-star teammates (4-8), Finals teams (4-6), and 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), while MJ was undefeated in all these scenarios - the only exception is that he's 6-2 with all-star teammates due to the baseball year and migraine year

Man I can't believe how easy MJ had it in the Finals. Basically playing one man teams.

Here's the 2nd leading scorer in the Finals for the teams he played against.

18.2ppg
16.2ppg
17.2ppg
18.0ppg
15ppg
10.7ppg

Meanwhile LeBron is getting Steph as the second scorer knocking in 27ppg+

MJ really did have the competition on rookie mode.

LeBron wouldn't have even needed a 6th game in any of those finals.

and yet your ready to put curry in front of lebron and magic despite saying this.

Lebron lost by record margin to a 17.8 ppg first option in 2014, or Jason Terry in 2011..

So no.. Organic chemistry and good ball movement annihilates Lebron just like the Nuggets, Spurs, Mavs and Warriors did, so an organic juggernaut like the 98' Jazz (who swept Shaq and Duncan/Popovich), would sweep LeLoser.... Heck, 1-man teams like Dirk, Dwight and Ant beat him via upset, while Booker's Suns or Pierce's Celtics locked him up and came back from 2-1 deficits (as the series underdog).. TLDR: every Tom, Dick, and Harry ragdolls Lebron's horrible brand of ball, so he would have a lottery record with good rosters (Finals teams, preseason favorites) in ANY era

The 2nd options of Jordan's Finals opponents were guards that drastically underperformed against him, but otherwise were often the team's 1st option that carried their team to the WCF or Finals:

1990 KEVIN JOHNSON...... upset Magic's 1 seed to make WCF
1992 TERRY PORTER......... 26/4/8 in WCF with 53% 3PT (6 att)
1997 STOCKTON............... 21/11 in WCF (led team)
1994 KEVIN JOHNSON...... 28/4/9 vs Hakeem
1995 KEVIN JOHNSON...... 27/4/9 vs Hakeem
1987 JAMES WORTHY........ 31 on 62% in 87' WCF

And again, Lebron lost by record margin to a 17.8 ppg 1st option in the 14' Finals and many others like Jason Terry, D'Andre Ayton, Hedo, and many other lesser guys at 2nd option.

3-pointer basketball (since 1980) is "offensive basketball", aka "modern" basketball because dominant offensive players are required to be MVP (while defenders could be MVP in 2-pointer basketball).

Essentially, offensive basketball is what matters (modern era), which is why MJ's six chips are goat, and why Curry is top 10

I forgot that the Lakers have Ayton. What a coddled loser Lebron is.. No one played with more #1 picks than Lebron.. And no one in history got to play with 6 different franchise players that had their own team/opposing 1st options (thus diluting the competition by teaming-up).. Only Lebron had this kind of advantage for most of his career (teaming up with opposing franchise players).. It's the weakest career in sports history (a resume that was manufactured by teaming up with opponents - unprecedented - and then still mostly losing/never a dynasty regardless of cast)

Btw, only Lebron had sidekicks average 25+ in the Finals on 4 different occasions (losing 2 of them)

And he teamed up with 6 different opposing franchise players, aka diluted the competition.. What a joke. At least 30 guys would've done better with his help.. He's simply weak at winning compared to peers.. His skillset is more to get individual stats than win or have sophisticated team offense

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I tried to come up with good proxies for the 6 franchise players that Lebron teamed up with:

Wade = Drexler

Bosh = Worthy

Kyrie = Isiah

Love = McHale

AD = Robinson

Luka = Bird

So imagine if someone teamed up with Drexler, Worthy, Isiah, McHale, Robinson and Bird but still had a lottery record against Finals teams and mostly lost with each team-up, aka 1 for 6 with AD - never a dynasty regardless of cast.

Such a player and comical career of losing collusions wouldn't be considered a top 10 all-time player.. This is obvious, so therein lies the fraud.. You're welcome..

Obviously, there's something suboptimal about his chemistry and brand of ball, which explains the underperforming teams compared to peers despite the most help ever (above)

Imagine thinking Ayton was good.

Yeah 40 year old LeBron teamed up with an injured and overweight Luka for 28 games cool story bro.

Isaiah is a champion and Kyrie is a giant nothing without Lebron.

It's statistical fact that Lebron was the cancer and massive negative after Luka arrived, while Luka averaged 28/7/8 on good efficiency and was a big positive:

When LeOld is out of the lineup, everyone starts playing faster and the team is literally hundreds of points better over the course of a regular season and playoffs.

Actually, Lebron lost without Kyrie in 2015 until Kyrie was the difference-maker in 2016 - this is similar to Kyrie being the difference-maker to get Luka to the Finals, and he would've done the same for the 18' Celtics but injury succumbed him.. It's actually amazing that Lebron gets props for beating injured teams like the 18' Celtics.

Regardless, we can use KJ instead of Isiah.. So again, imagine playing with Drexler, Robinson, Bird, Worthy, McHale and KJ but still losing catastrophically most years and never having a dynasty - aka lottery record against many teams and many upset losses, sweep losses or record losses.. And a lottery record against Finals teams over massive sample

Booker took him to the Finals so I would expect Luka to as well, except for Lebron's statistically-negative presence - it will f everything up and the team will underachieve just like the 1st Round in recent years.. Only Lebron can be blamed for losing in the 1st Round with AD and Luka - it's simply a huge underachievement no matter how you slice it.. Remember that LeBum lost in the 21' First Round, while missing the play-in in 22', and then 1st Round or sweep loser for the next 3 years.. So he's been a complete trainwreck since coming out West after fixing the East (putting the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team, aka "decision")

3pts basketball since 1980 lol….

So u disagree today’s basketball it’s easier to score , for everyone …?

Kevin love , “the franchise player” , didn’t play either .
Funny how u dismiss him so easily for a great player like love .
Maybe he was the difference too.

I wonder what would happens if mj wouldn’t had grant and pippen in 1991-92-93 …

Ps: the bolded part, imagine thinking winning 4 rings and 4 fmvp means nothing .
That is what he accomplished with them .
Second most ever after mj .

Not all #1 picks were created equally.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

https://x.com/Super70sSports/status/1981...

Under the Lebron-ball system, Love is a replaceable role player... He's nothing because Lebron lacks the IQ and skills to elevate his 3rd options like Bosh, Love or Jamison - they all cratered to nothing alongside him - heck, even Austin Reaves craters alongside Lebron compared to when he's out of the lineup... Unfortunately, Lebron only knows how to reduce guys to spot-up role and doesn't offer the higher levels of team offense that off-ball guys do (Curry, Kobe, MJ, Duncan).

Since Lebron turns Love into a replaceable role player, only Kyrie matters... And when Kyrie plays, he puts Lebron over the top in 16', or Luka in 24', while injury stopped him from elevating the 18' Celtics and 21' Nets.

Ultimately, Lebron needed elite producers and franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option, while MJ only needed a secondary producer (a klay/pippen/manu-level producer).

Missing Grant is like missing Tristan Thompson - Grant was an ordinary 11/8 guy and wasn't a franchise player like Love or Kyrie.

MJ already won with Kukoc as the starter in the 98' Playoffs, or fossil Rodman getting 4/8 in the 97' Playoffs, so MJ didn't need franchise guys at PF like Lebron did

Lebron's title frequency is the lowest of any top 10 candidate despite having the most help ever.

4 chips in 23 years with Drexler, Robinson, McHale, KJ, Worthy, and Bird is massive failure... It's mostly catastrophic losses every year despite preseason favorites, all-star teammates, and top seeds - still getting swept, upset and record losses every year despite the most help ever

The point is that when Lebron got 2 pippens in 2011 and also a great organization with Pat Riley and Spolestra - he still failed to reach MJ's llevel of 3-peat, 70 wins or dynasty.. Instead, he went 2/4 including goat choke, record loss, teammate bailout and a win over babies - it's the worst anyone can do - this isn't a top 30 performance let alone a goat debate - 30 guys would've done better than 2/4...

Then he went 1/4 and 1/6 with his next 2 team-ups with Kyrie/Love and AD... Again, at least 50 guys would've done better than this.. It proves he's nowhere near goat...

It's been 10-15 years since Wade and Kyrie averaged 27 ppg alongside Lebron, so that's not "today's game"

Yet Lebron mostly lost with this goat help (27 ppg from teammate)

Players that won with non-franchise players & secondary producers at sidekick:

Curry (15', 22)
Duncan (05, 07')
Jordan (91-93', 96-98')
Kawhi (19')

Players that needed franchise players at sidekick

Lebron
Durant
Magic

Pascal Siakam is just as much a franchise player as Kyrie Irving.

Scottie Pippen is too. Basically any player In Pippens spot would be 'not a franchise player' according to you. He could've been Bird or Magic, it wouldn't matter.

You're the GOAT at being biased.

LeBron's style of play allows a teammate to score 27 per game. Jordan's would never do that.

Well u have bad empirical evidence.
1994 bulls did great with Grant and without mj
As Soon Grant left bulls cratered in 1995 even with mj .
Rodman came in, bulls 3 peated .

lol
Kobe and shaq had each others
Kareem had magic , the big O and others .
Russell no help ? Jfc ..
Wilt had no helps with the lakers ??? And still he lost many times …
I’ll stop there
Such bs again

The rest is nonsense as usual .
U got demolish many times by the goat choke of 2011 bs and you just keep repeating like a parrot .
No point continuing .

Luka has no skill compared to Jordan, yet he's averaging 46 PPG.. and no athleticism either

It's an open paint beginner format so unathletic guys can get numbers like Luka and Jokic, while beginner shooters like Zion, Giannis and Westbrook don't have to shoot over packed paints like prior eras - they can just gallivant into an open paint.

Again, non-athletes and non-shooters dominate today's game, so what more evidence is needed to show that today's format is weak?.. Our underperformance and losing internationally provides more obvious evidence.

Btw, look at Luka's snail-slow release on his jumper compared to Bird - Bird could get off jumpers quicker than anyone in history and with hand-checking/physicality - he didn't need to dribble out the shot-clock to get off a jumper or assist... His scoring instinct was quicker and superior, while his jumpshot was goat... He was also better at 5 man basketball by having the expert jumpshooting skill and quick instinct to run off screens.. Bird also had Shaq-hands - most people don't know that Bird had massive hands - bigger, faster and much stronger than Luka - he could dominate inside or outside more than Luka.

Also, we can all agree that Shaq was a once-in-a-lifetime physical specimen that everyone says would average 100 in the 60's... So why was he barely averaging 25-30 in the 90's and swept for 6 straight seasons (94-99')?? It's because the 90's was tough.. Btw, the reason that guys can't average 40 is because they're only good at 3's and it requires 2-point bag and mastery (basketball) to average 40