GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Magic and Bird had all-time casts that barely hung with the Bad Boys, while MJ swept Isiah with a regular cast of role players.
Ultimately, Jordan's opponents would look good too if he lost to them all the time like Lebron did.. The 97' and 98' Jazz would be a goat team if they went back-to-back and beat the Bulls both years.
You're projecting Lebron's losses to ordinary rosters onto Jordan, who only lost to stacked rosters.
Specifically, Lebron lost to three 1-star underdog teams (Mavs, Magic, TWolves), while Jordan's worst opponent (that he lost to) was the peak Shaq/Penny Magic during Jordan's baseball year.
In addition to 3 upset losses to 1-star teams, Lebron is 17-36 in the playoffs against Spurs, Warriors and Nuggets (ball movement ragdolls ball-dominance).
Isiah/Dumars/Rodman were 29/27/29 years old when MJ beat them in 91'.
KG/Pierce/Allen were 33/32/34 when Lebron beat them in 11' (but Wade led PPG and APG, aka carried Lebron over his bully).
Lebron also lost by record amount to 37-year old Duncan and an old core, or to an old Celtics' team in 2010 as a -500 favorite.
The same lottery cast that Jordan dragged to 50 wins in 89' was the same 3-peat cast in 93'...
So their improvement is based on chemistry improvement and pure basketball improvement instead of acquisitions/additions of talent.
It should be mentioned that the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas took 3 seasons to develop a favored high seed before entering their first playoffs in 06', which included adding a player that was better than 1990 Pippen..
05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN........... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP.... 16/6/5... No All-D
Otoh, MJ didn't have 3 seasons before entering his first playoffs, or an all-star center - he has a 1st year lottery cast, while Lebron had 3rd year decorated cast
Remember when Marquez knocked out Pacquiao, aka convincing win??
This dynamic is relevant because Lebron never beat a great player convincingly, while Jordan knocked out Magic, Shaq and Isiah via sweep
Specifically, Lebron barely beat the Warriors and Spurs once each via bailout, but then lost to them 3 times each.. Then AD carried the Lakers over the Nuggets before the Nuggets swept Lebron twice after that.
Ultimately, Lebron only won as the preseason favorite against teams that he had better rosters than, while Jordan won 6 chips against ECF and Finals opponents that had better rosters - the Bulls were NOTHING from the 3 through 12 spots, and the numbers show that Jordan's casts were massively out-produced in every series.. Jordan won with far less passing help and scoring help than the opponent, while Lebron always had higher team assists and the best scoring help ever when he won.
Ultimately, Lebron is a joke because even during his prime with all-star teammates, he has lottery record in the playoffs against everyone, such as the TWolves, Mavs, Magic, Celtics, Nuggets, Spurs, Suns and Warriors
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Why couldn't Lebron develop a champion when he was gifted 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen?
05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D
09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
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Help needed to win 50 games for Lebron in 2006:
* The East all-star center
* Acquisition that was better than 1990 Pippen (previous post)
* Great coach
Help needed to win 50 games for Jordan in 1988:
* Nothing (carry-job)
They both developed 50-win high seeds by their 3rd healthy season (06' and 88'), except MJ had an accolade-less lottery roster, while Lebron had a decorated cast of veterans.
"He's Kevin Durant"
"He's Shaq"
"He's so and so"
That isn't goat caliber.
Ultimately, Jordan would've swept a fossil Duncan just like he swept Isiah, Magic and Shaq - Jordan destroyed great players, while Lebron didn't - Lebron needed lucky bailouts to barely beat Curry and Duncan in one-off fashion, but otherwise had massively losing records overall against them.
And I'm assuming that video of Popovich was after Game 7 of the 13' Finals, which was a series that the Heat didn't win when Lebron was on the floor - Lebron had a zero plus-minus and negative net rating for the series.. And the only reason he needed 7 games is because he wet the bed thru 6 - he averaged 16 on 39% to get a 1-2 deficit, while his 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 and required teammate bailout..
TLDR: it's called speaking euphemistically or political speak, aka he got lucky
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Great players/Top 10 candidates that Jordan destroyed/swept
* Isiah
* Shaq
* Magic
Great players/Top 10 candidates that Lebron destroyed/swept
Lebron isn't capable of beating a great player/top 10 candidate convincingly, since he was always destroyed by top 10 candidates like Jokic, Duncan, or Curry - they beat him by wide margins multiple times each, while he barely beat them in one-off fashion via teammate bailout (Allen, Kyrie/Draymond, AD).
Essentially, Lebron can't beat the best convincingly and infact stinks against the best, aka he has a lottery record against Finals teams AND great players/top 10 candidates
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Why couldn't Lebron develop a champion when he was gifted 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen?
[indent]
1989 IT 17.1 PER 0.155 WS/48 3.4 VORP 2.6 BPM 18/8/3 No All NBA (Either)
So, MJ got beaten by a player worse than Larry Hughes and he still wants to call himself the GOAT.
Jordan wins 1 out of 4 series against IT. I wouldn't be putting that on the list of "MJ is the greatest reasons" like FG.
I could never figure out what made Isiah so good, even at IU. He was small without hops or speed, he wasn't a good shooter. Now, how is this going to translate to the NBA? I mean it's undeniable he was great, some kind of artist or something, maybe some of the same things that made Bird great, but I just couldn't pinpoint anything allowing him to be dominant. Usually a little guy is either lightning fast or a great shooter. IT was neither.
I wonder if the Lakers can get three guys with a triple-double in a game this year?
Jordan wins 1 out of 4 series against IT. I wouldn't be putting that on the list of "MJ is the greatest reasons" like FG.
You don't understand the history
The Pistons made up for their talent deficit to the Celtics/Lakers by having a superior brand of ball, aka physicality
Similarly, the Bulls made up for their talent deficit to the Pistons by developing a finesse brand that usurped the Pistons ' brand..
Essentially, Jordan didn't just beat the Pistons - he made their brand obsolete, thereby ENDING them as contenders - they never contended again despite Dumars and Rodman entering their prime.
So again, Jordan beat top 10 candidates convincingly, while Lebron never did - he barely won once via teammate bailout and was otherwise destroyed by everyone.. Lebron has a losing record against everyone and also a losing record with good teams like preseason favorites, top seeds, Finals teams and all-star teammates - he's a massive loser in all these scenarios
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Lebron is a massive loser in the playoffs against
* Mavs (2-4)
* Magic (2-4)
* TWolves (1-4)
* Nuggets (5-10)
* Spurs (5-11)
* Warriors (7-15)
Lebron is a massive loser with good rosters
* preseason favorites (3 for 7)
* all-star teammates (4 for 12)
*1 or 2 seeds (4 for 9)
* Finals teams (4 for 10)
TLDR: lebron is a loser against everyone and with all types of good rosters - he's the biggest underachiever of rosters ever and has the most bad series losses ever
^^^ you foolishly showed that Lebron needs to be a 13 ppg role player for teammates to be maximized, which doesn't address the original point that Lebron destroys everyone when he's 1st or 2nd option and playing closer to capacity..
Again, it's statistical fact that when Lebron is 1st option, he increases everyone's assisted buckets/spot-up role, which produced the worst fits ever and therefore the most underachieving rosters compared to his peers - the standard for Lebron is to start as the preseason favorite but then barely win 50 games, thereby falling to underdog or loser.. every year... So it's a historical fact that Bron-ball underachieved rosters the most of any top 10 candidate
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Lebron at 40:
15/4/7 on 46/55/31
4th option
Damn Fallguy. I check this thread like once every 3 months and its always
flooded with your posts.
You have a strange obsession over this.
Maybe you should write a book on this topic.
lol 5 game sample size coming off an injury
Real numbers.
LeBron @ 40 (last year) - PER 22.7 WS/48 0.152 BPM 5.6 VORP 4.7
Jordan @ 39 - PER 19.3 WS/48 0.099 BPM 1.7 VORP 2.8
If you want to argue MJ's peak is close to LeBron's it's wrong, but has some merits.
But don't talk longevity. It's arguing in bad faith.
Sample size is irrelevant because Reaves is the better franchise investment at this point and isn't worth suppressing in favor of Lebron anymore.. Reaves' ascension to All-NBA level means that the Lakers basically have 2 Luka's, so there's no need for Lebron anymore..
Haven't you seen Lebron 's lack of movement on both ends?.. You don't think that in negativity impacts the team on both ends??.. The Lakers will get destroyed by any good team if LeOld plays more than 20 minutes, aka they won't contend this year.. The inherent flaw in lebron's game is magnified in his old age (doesn't know how to play off-ball - he thinks it means merely standing off ball/standing around.. lol)
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LeBron @ 40 (last year) - PER 22.7 WS/48 0.152 BPM 5.6 VORP 4.7
Jordan @ 39 - PER 19.3 WS/48 0.099 BPM 1.7 VORP 2.8
Lebron is currently 40 years old, yet he's 4th option and a bum, while MJ played 40 games as a 40-year old in 2003 with 22/7/4 averages.
So Lebron has cratered at 40 compared to what we saw from 40-year MJ
[QUOTE=fidstar-poker;591(88' to 98') 68588]
If you want to argue MJ's peak is close to LeBron's it's wrong, but has some merits.
[/Quote]
Fill in the Lebron part for me:
Reasons that Jordan had the goat peak:
* The best offensive player that was also a great defender
* The only guy that carried a team to 6 titles such as 10-30 ppg more than teammates in every series (15.4 average margin) - scoring help matters since that's what everyone in history needed the most, aka everyone in history needed teammates to lead the scoring for at least 1 title run, except MJ .. And everyone in history needed equal-scoring partners for large parts of their career, except MJ, who always carried the scoring load (defeated max defensive attention) - this is unique to MJ.
* 9 straight seasons of scoring champ and 1st team defense, including 6 titles and 5 MVP's
* 41 ppg to 3-peat
* 1 of 2 MVP/DPOY seasons in history
* The only simultaneous winner of MVP/FMVP/scoring champ/1st Team Defense (4 times)
* None of the goat athletes in history are goat jumpshooters, except Jordan, aka the only goat athlete that was also a goat shooter of 2's or 3's (MJ had goat mid-range, aka 2's)
* Many playoff runs of 35 ppg and the only player with 30 ppg in RS and PO career
Reasons that Lebron had the goat peak:
??????
Lebron wasn't MVP or All-defense for his entire 30's, while MJ was MVP/scoring champ/1st team defense at 35 years old and 5: MVP's throughout a 10 year period from 25 to 35 years old..
Accordingly , MJ has the goat longevity of peak/MVP play,
I'm just asking, and I don't know the answer, has Fallguy in this thread ever presented or conceded any point that favors LeBron in this debate ... or is it just 9,000,000 words all in favor of Mike? ( I don't have time to read 9,000,000 words at the moment, cause 9,000,000 words seems a little over the top.)
I love how LeBron's age 41 season and Jordan's age 39 season conveniently both become age 40 seasons.
Jordan had no age 40 season. LeBron finished 6th in MVP voting at age 40.
This thread is fun, because I can check on the last page every 6 months or so and know im reading the same stuff id have read 3 months prior. So I really dont ever miss anything.
Lebron is currently 40 years old, yet he's 4th option and a bum, while MJ played 40 games as a 40-year old in 2003 with 22/7/4 averages.
So Lebron has cratered at 40 compared to what we saw from 40-year MJ
MJ played 30 games (12 wins 18 losses). Was 22/7/3 on less than 50% eFG.
For comparison. The first 30 games LeBron played after 40 he was 26/9/8 on over 60% eFG. He was 21-9.
Come on. Stop being silly.
