WSOP 2023 ME deep(ish) run payout trouble
Hello, Workaholics!
My name is Pavel, I play poker for over 10 years now, a very few of you may know me as "bomba-tiktak" on pokerstars. I currently play cash online on Ontario based platforms.
And..... I'm having concerns that I'm getting robbed by Paris cage and some of the WSOP representatives.
There's a lot of little things that are making me think so, but I will try to keep this post as short as possible.
So, this summer I finished 48th in ME this year for a payout of $188400 and I only managed to get $50000 out of Paris cage, which i took in cash, while the other $138400
was supposed to be sent to my bank account via wire transfer.
But... according to the Paris cage manager Meagan Marks and WSOP poker operations director Andrew Cash, this wire transfer had been placed on hold (for almost a month now) for investigation by my bank's intermediary and they cannot do anything about it at this point. Even give me a wire federal tracking number so I can come to my bank and ask questions.
I spent three weeks trying to sort it out with Andy via everyday e-mails , and he only provided me with misleading information, dodging the tracking info question for as long as possible.
The latest update was that he cannot get the tracking info from Paris cage.
A little recap of what happened:
I used my Russian passport to avoid paying the draconic 30% tax for North Americans (sorry guys), but I wanted my wire to go to TD Canada USD account.
I gave a paper with my wire information to the Paris cage clerk, and she refused it (?!). Only asked to fill out the WSOP wire form, which didn't require any addresses.
I didn't know the importance of it at that point.
Of course, they put my Russian address and no wonder the wire never went through. They sent wire on December 14th, allegedly.
Since then series of weird things happened:
1. When I first asked about confirmation of a processed wire they sent me a document which showed that this wire is still "Awaiting approval". Later they apologized and told me that it was a wrong document and it should've never been sent to me.
2. When I asked Meagan about tracking info, she sent me their banks SWIFT information, which is a least important piece of information needed to track a wire transfer.
She also mentioned that she works in this industry for many years and knows exactly that this is what my bank needs in order to help me .
3. Then Andy Rich took over. Allegedly, they sent a request to Wells Fargo to track this wire. Wells Fargo investigated and concluded that some information was missing, and on 28/12 Paris cage sent the missing information and the money can show up any time now (nobody ever asked me about my Canadian address).
Around January 7th, Andy provided me with an update that the transfer is on hold by my bank's intermediary and Wells Fargo is waiting for their response. I requested the tracking number again, and he replied that it is not in his power to get it from the Paris cage.
They offered me to come to Vegas and request a wire recall, which would take around 14 business days, but at this point I find it difficult to trust them (for example, Mr. Cash has a picture of a Vampire on his LinkedIn background) and would like to hear the people's opinion first.
Maybe some of you accountants, lawyers, and maybe even witchers would be able to help me to finally receive my hardly earned T-dollars. Why on earth are they refusing to give me the tracking number?
easily solved..
goto vegas for 2 weeks..or have them recall the wire now and go in 2 weeks. doesn't really matter.
get paid out in person
apologize for your tone and attitude and say thank you..
next time don't try to avoid taxes..
Do you really think this guy can follow such simple directions?
Instead of fixating on this number you think they need to provide you and thinking they are frauds, read the email, reread the email and then do exactly what it says
Poker is considered a game where everybody enters trying to make profit, and lacks business properties such as a physical place or business tools to secure a steady income.
Irrelevant imo, if it's your sole income it's taxable. I mean drug dealing, a purely illegal activity, is 100% taxable in the US, and they've sent people to jail for failing to pay taxes when they didn't have enough evidence to convict them of drug dealing. I'm pretty sure the CRA has come out and said that if poker is your main income, it's taxable, but not 100% sure. Not judging or saying you SHOULD pay taxes, I'm not here for that. Just what I think the CRA thinks about it.
Again, I'm having doubts that this recall thing will be legit. Since their activity is pretty suspicious.
The thing is it seems like one cannot get an official statement from them.
In order to track a wire I simply need a tracking number, which they refuse to give.
At least it would give me some information.
Agreeing on a recall means to trust their word again. And at this point it is unclear whether they sent the wire in the first place. What could be easier than giving me
the tracking number? Yet they have reasons to hide it from me without any explanations.
I mean you're entitled to the money, you won it fair and square and they let you in the tournament. If they attempted to hold this money from you I think, in my amateur opinion, you'd have a pretty strong legal case against them. I don't think Paris is trying to **** you over. I think this is more a problem with a bank wire to a Russian citizen in Canada than anything else, but that is pure speculation on my part. Maybe it just takes a long time for Canadian banks to process any incoming wire more than a certain amount. I know for a fact US banks attempting to cash Canadian checks takes a minimum of 30 days, if they do at all. The least probable outcome is Paris is attempting to **** you out of the money. Close to 0% chance on that one.
Ok, fair enough. Then why are they acting so strange, refused my wire info, sent wire to Canada providing my Russian ID (probably knowing it would raise flags), refusing to provide the tracking number?
They mentioned Wells Fargo asked questions about this wire, and they gave them answers. But again they never bothered to contact me about it and ask for my Canadian address.
It just seems it is in their interest to make this payout long and complicated, don't you think?
It’s not in their interest at all. The money isn’t sitting in their accounts earning interest.
Like I said, I pay a substantial amount of rake playing poker on fenced ontario poker rooms. And the cost of living in Toronto is pretty high and I spent good money on rent and other things, so you can't say that economy suffers because of people like me. Health care I prefer to do in Russia, because its also free and better quality in many cases. I'm also building a house in Russia. Because living in Canada is not as great nowadays as one might think. It's you who is bitching about a russian p
You don’t want to pay taxes. You don’t want to pay for a tax attorney. You don’t like paying rake to play live. You complain about the high cost of living in Canada and declare that it should exempt you from having to pay taxes. You use your Russian passport while providing your Canadian address because you…don’t want to pay taxes. That creates big problems for you while attempting to collect your money. You not only complain about the problems using your Russian passport in order to avoid paying taxes caused you, but accuse Paris of attempting to cheat you out of your money. You **** talk their employees. And you do all of that on one of the most prominent platforms in poker…which you have pretty much never contributed to in any way until now, when you needed something and see an advantage in doing so. Maybe you should consider putting a picture of a vampire in YOUR profile.
You don’t want to pay taxes. You don’t want to pay for a tax attorney. You don’t like paying rake to play live. You complain about the high cost of living in Canada and declare that it should exempt you from having to pay taxes. You use your Russian passport while providing your Canadian address because you…don’t want to pay taxes. That creates big problems for you while attempting to collect your money. You not only complain about the problems using your Russian passport in order to avoid payin
I really wish people like this didn't exist. OP is being as reasonable as possible in an absurd situation and trying to make sure he gets his money that he has every right to and no government has any reasonable claim to. What is your problem?
You don’t want to pay taxes. You don’t want to pay for a tax attorney. You don’t like paying rake to play live. You complain about the high cost of living in Canada and declare that it should exempt you from having to pay taxes. You use your Russian passport while providing your Canadian address because you…don’t want to pay taxes. That creates big problems for you while attempting to collect your money. You not only complain about the problems using your Russian passport in order to avoid payin
Done
It’s not in their interest at all. The money isn’t sitting in their accounts earning interest.
The money is supposed to be picked up by a player within three years. Maybe they want the wire to get arrested until further resolution, or just keep telling me that it is stuck between banks. With this kind of customer service it is almost impossible to get an official statement out of them. So they can keep telling me they have no power to process the payment, that the money is not available etc.
Maybe someone within WSOP management also hates my guts for trying to avoid paying the 30%, and wants to teach me a lesson, and try to keep the money using this corporate sh*thousery.
Let’s look at it different way. Would any of it happen, if WSOP and Paris wanted this wire to go as smooth as possible? Every step of the way there’s something that suggests otherwise.
Again, what is stopping them from sharing the tracking number, if they are honest and transparent about it. Don’t I have a right as a beneficiary to receive this type of information in case there’s a problem
With the wire?
This is a potential OFAC issue and therefore their incentives are highly skewed towards conservatism. The individuals with whom you are interacting do not have a personal incentive to not get you your money, they are just trying to not get fired.
If I were in your shoes I’d get on a plane and go try to deal with this in person.
Was Mr. Crowley on Diary of a Madman? Appropriate, if true.
I really wish people like this didn't exist. OP is being as reasonable as possible in an absurd situation and trying to make sure he gets his money that he has every right to and no government has any reasonable claim to. What is your problem?
No, OP is a paranoid chimpanzee who won't follow simple directions to get his money because "they" are out to cheat him.
I really wish people like this didn't exist. OP is being as reasonable as possible in an absurd situation and trying to make sure he gets his money that he has every right to and no government has any reasonable claim to. What is your problem?
OP is not being reasonable. OP tried to avoid paying taxes on his income by by playing fast and loose with his residency requirements. And as a result his payment is tied up in knots. He brought this on himself by being dishonest about where he resides and trying to avoid paying taxes that he may be legally obligated to pay based on where he actually lives.
This is a potential OFAC issue and therefore their incentives are highly skewed towards conservatism. The individuals with whom you are interacting do not have a personal incentive to not get you your money, they are just trying to not get fired.
If I were in your shoes I’d get on a plane and go try to deal with this in person.
That’s reasonable. They probably were “concerned about US security” so they set me up like that. For my wsop winnings. And who’s paranoid here.
I guess I’ll have to wait
Even if the above is true, the tax year isn't over, he hasn't submitted anything false and he can still pay the taxes.
He is claiming he is being unfairly treated and cheated because he can't follow simple directions.
OP is not being reasonable. OP tried to avoid paying taxes on his income by by playing fast and loose with his residency requirements. And as a result his payment is tied up in knots. He brought this on himself by being dishonest about where he resides and trying to avoid paying taxes that he may be legally obligated to pay based on where he actually lives.
If one has two citizenships and is equally involved in both countries, why one should choose to use their Canadian identity over a Russian one? WSOP allowed me to play, and approved and processed a payout.
That’s reasonable. They probably were “concerned about US security” so they set me up like that. For my wsop winnings. And who’s paranoid here.
I guess I’ll have to wait
Did that email say to continue to claim you were set up in an online poker forum but otherwise, just wait?
Damn, you are acting dumb.
Can you have remaining payout balance reduced to a Caesar’s check? Like a physical paper check? Why mess with int’l wires when you know the Russian thing is going to cause problems. I’d go back to Vegas, recall the wire, take a check (or cash) and just present it to your bank back home. It may take some time to clear/credit but whatever.
OP tells WSOP he is Russian. OP tells WSOP to send winnings to a bank in Canada, where he also holds citizenship and which is apparently where he lives. OP is surprised and dismayed when confusion inevitably ensues.
If one has two citizenships and is equally involved in both countries, why one should choose to use their Canadian identity over a Russian one? WSOP allowed me to play, and approved and processed a payout.
Where is your legal residence? Where do you file your taxes? If you file in Russia but you are sending the money to Canada that is a red flag. If you file in Canada but you tell WSOP you are cashing out as a Russian to avoid withholding, that is also a red flag plus possible tax fraud. And yet you are surprised that your payment is delayed?
I really wish people like this didn't exist. OP is being as reasonable as possible in an absurd situation and trying to make sure he gets his money that he has every right to and no government has any reasonable claim to. What is your problem?
Your delusional. That is not how the real world works.
Can you have remaining payout balance reduced to a Caesar’s check? Like a physical paper check? Why mess with int’l wires when you know the Russian thing is going to cause problems. I’d go back to Vegas, recall the wire, take a check (or cash) and just present it to your bank back home. It may take some time to clear/credit but whatever.
No, they don't provide check option.
OP tells WSOP he is Russian. OP tells WSOP to send winnings to a bank in Canada, where he also holds citizenship and which is apparently where he lives. OP is surprised and dismayed when confusion inevitably ensues.
Where is your legal residence? Where do you file your taxes? If you file in Russia but you are sending the money to Canada that is a red flag. If you file in Canada but you tell WSOP you are cashing out as a Russian to avoid withholding, that is also a red flag plus possible tax fra
I'm not surprised my payment is delayed. I'm surprised WSOP declined my banking information slip and processed the wire knowing upfront there will likely be problems.
If there's no rule about payouts to individuals with multiple citizenships, then it shouldn't be WSOP's concern where I pay taxes and where I do not.
I entered the tournament using my Russian ID, I used my Russian ID previously to receive payouts in 2016. I filled out the form using my Russian taxpayer ID.
I did that because I chose so, and I had all the rights to do so, until proven otherwise. Which bank and which country I wanted to send money to, again shouldn't be WSOP's concern.
But WSOP, like many of you here, is being anal about the money which by their belief only (and without any legal arguments) should remain in their country.
If they only used my Canadian address which was presented to them with my wire information slip, there would be no problem at all.
The money would come to Canada, I would keep throwing back into economy around 10k a month, living+rake, and everybody would be happy.
But no, so many people cannot sleep properly because some players get to pay less taxes than they do.
If they only used my Canadian address which was presented to them with my wire information slip, there would be no problem at all.
The money would come to Canada, I would keep throwing back into economy around 10k a month, living+rake, and everybody would be happy.
But no, so many people cannot sleep properly because some players get to pay less taxes than they do.
If you’d used your Canadian address whilst using your Russian passport (to avoid withholding), you’d definitely be investigated for tax fraud right now.
The key to taxation is residence, not nationality (unless you’re a US citizen living abroad, but that’s a whole different ballgame)
Having dual citizenship doesn’t give you ‘the right’ to choose which nationality of taxation you use, where you live does. That’s what taxation is. Paying for the services that you’re provided with where you live.
Please explain why I should've used the Canadian option. And why I should file taxes in Canada when my only income is from poker, which is not taxable in Ontario.
I suggest you ask these questions to a professional tax advisor and not a random internet person. Find someone who is an actual expert and pay them for this advice.
It’s really not complicated enough to justify paying a tax advisor
