WSOP 2023 ME deep(ish) run payout trouble
Hello, Workaholics!
My name is Pavel, I play poker for over 10 years now, a very few of you may know me as "bomba-tiktak" on pokerstars. I currently play cash online on Ontario based platforms.
And..... I'm having concerns that I'm getting robbed by Paris cage and some of the WSOP representatives.
There's a lot of little things that are making me think so, but I will try to keep this post as short as possible.
So, this summer I finished 48th in ME this year for a payout of $188400 and I only managed to get $50000 out of Paris cage, which i took in cash, while the other $138400
was supposed to be sent to my bank account via wire transfer.
But... according to the Paris cage manager Meagan Marks and WSOP poker operations director Andrew Cash, this wire transfer had been placed on hold (for almost a month now) for investigation by my bank's intermediary and they cannot do anything about it at this point. Even give me a wire federal tracking number so I can come to my bank and ask questions.
I spent three weeks trying to sort it out with Andy via everyday e-mails , and he only provided me with misleading information, dodging the tracking info question for as long as possible.
The latest update was that he cannot get the tracking info from Paris cage.
A little recap of what happened:
I used my Russian passport to avoid paying the draconic 30% tax for North Americans (sorry guys), but I wanted my wire to go to TD Canada USD account.
I gave a paper with my wire information to the Paris cage clerk, and she refused it (?!). Only asked to fill out the WSOP wire form, which didn't require any addresses.
I didn't know the importance of it at that point.
Of course, they put my Russian address and no wonder the wire never went through. They sent wire on December 14th, allegedly.
Since then series of weird things happened:
1. When I first asked about confirmation of a processed wire they sent me a document which showed that this wire is still "Awaiting approval". Later they apologized and told me that it was a wrong document and it should've never been sent to me.
2. When I asked Meagan about tracking info, she sent me their banks SWIFT information, which is a least important piece of information needed to track a wire transfer.
She also mentioned that she works in this industry for many years and knows exactly that this is what my bank needs in order to help me .
3. Then Andy Rich took over. Allegedly, they sent a request to Wells Fargo to track this wire. Wells Fargo investigated and concluded that some information was missing, and on 28/12 Paris cage sent the missing information and the money can show up any time now (nobody ever asked me about my Canadian address).
Around January 7th, Andy provided me with an update that the transfer is on hold by my bank's intermediary and Wells Fargo is waiting for their response. I requested the tracking number again, and he replied that it is not in his power to get it from the Paris cage.
They offered me to come to Vegas and request a wire recall, which would take around 14 business days, but at this point I find it difficult to trust them (for example, Mr. Cash has a picture of a Vampire on his LinkedIn background) and would like to hear the people's opinion first.
Maybe some of you accountants, lawyers, and maybe even witchers would be able to help me to finally receive my hardly earned T-dollars. Why on earth are they refusing to give me the tracking number?
Maybe not for you, but the guy whose money is at stake? Seems like it might be a little too complicated for him.
I meant more along the lines of he should just read my posts
Waste your money if you like
If you’d used your Canadian address whilst using your Russian passport (to avoid withholding), you’d definitely be investigated for tax fraud right now.
The key to taxation is residence, not nationality (unless you’re a US citizen living abroad, but that’s a whole different ballgame)
Having dual citizenship doesn’t give you ‘the right’ to choose which nationality of taxation you use, where you live does. That’s what taxation is. Paying for the services that you’re provided with where you live.
Ok, that's not great news for me. Let's see what will happen.
This might be nomenclature, but what do you mean by a "tracking number"? Any international wire should have an MT103 to accompany it - is that what Paris is refusing to provide?
Have you ensured that the payment is not being held due to an OFAC issue? With the current hostilities the sanctions are pretty broad and would guess even non-sanctioned people / entities could be confused based on something as simple as a similar name.
As related, Paris refusing to provide wire details is a bit weird. I agree with other posters that they are not just randomly trying to screw someone who cashed in WSOP for this amount of money. They are heavily regulated and owned by Caesars so I feel confident saying you have either misinterpreted their actions or they are being directed to hold the payment.
If they were not refusing to provide wire details, I would agree with others that this process is unique with dual citizenship (one of the nations being under heavy sanctions) and just needs time to work it's way through the financial institutions.
I would just have them recall the wire and go to the cage myself once they indicated everything is in order and I can be paid. If they refuse to payout after that you can post your conspiracy theories and I will take them seriously.
This might be nomenclature, but what do you mean by a "tracking number"? Any international wire should have an MT103 to accompany it - is that what Paris is refusing to provide?
Have you ensured that the payment is not being held due to an OFAC issue? With the current hostilities the sanctions are pretty broad and would guess even non-sanctioned people / entities could be confused based on something as simple as a similar name.
As related, Paris refusing to provide wire details is a bit weird. I a
Great answer, thanks.
No, this is what they provided in the beginning when I requested some information. And that was it.
Wow actually there’s payment ID, not sure if that’s what’s needed though. Will check with the bank next week. And it does exist, contrary to mr. Rich’s statement in the e-mail I posted.
I hope someone directed them to hold the transfer, which would be at least a little bit understandable.
I had sent these documents to my buddy who works at TD he couldn’t find anything.
And someone suggested recalling will only slow down the investigation process.
The basic rule of thumb with Caesars is, "Never attribute their actions to malice which can be explained by incompetence."
Except here I'm not even sure there's any incompetence going on. As others have explained, this is a complex situation, given your Canadian residency and Russian nationality, plus various US sanctions against Russia.
There is absolutely zero point zero chance that Caesars is trying to stiff you out of $188k. I can say this despite the presence of a vampire on Andy Rich's profile.
Unlike others in this thread, I don't care if you're trying to stiff Canada out of tax paymets. That's between you and Canada, and not really our business.
However, you need to understand that this is a complex situation, very possibly out of Paris' control. And even if it is within their control, it might be unusual enough to where they don't quite understand how to handle it.
Either way, you're being offered to recall the wire.
Ask them the timetable to recall it. Then have them do it, and schedule a trip to Vegas to pick up the cash for when it's likely to be done. You'll lose 30%, but that's the way it goes being a foreign player at the WSOP.
There's really nothing more to say at this point.
I really wish people like this didn't exist. OP is being as reasonable as possible in an absurd situation and trying to make sure he gets his money that he has every right to and no government has any reasonable claim to. What is your problem?
My problem is that I don’t like it when people not only don’t want to pay their fair share but then bitch about having to, and blame others for their own problems. Other than that, not much.
Here are some questions for you. Let’s see if you are willing to answer them:
Do you think Paris is attempting to cheat him out of his money?
Do you think the employees he called out deserved to be dragged into this and have their names posted here?
Do you think he could solve all of this by flying to Vegas to collect his money?
Do you think he should pay a tax attorney to advise him of his actual responsibilities? (The two of you could split the cost and perhaps both learn something.)
My point is he's making very direct statements about his beliefs about the taxability of his situation. If he's willing to risk screwing around with CRA on the basis of his google searches or the forum posts of "Pete Blow", more power to him. Back when I first heard about the need to file US taxes as a citizen no matter where you were in the world from this forum, I hired a tax professional to help me navigate the need to file both in Canada and the USA every year, along with FBAR and other documents. Is it super complicated? Not really. But I sleep a lot better knowing I have an certified tax preparer in the US to deal with this rather than trusting myself.
He's obviously got significant poker income. He's already tried to just "lets figure it out for myself" and has a 6 figure wire transfer in limbo. This is well worth a few hundred bucks to a professional to get answers that not only he's sure are right, but will be backed up by a certified professional if he gets audited. I'm all for him trying to avoid as much tax as he can. Just do it correctly.
My problem is that I don’t like it when people not only don’t want to pay their fair share but then bitch about having to, and blame others for their own problems. Other than that, not much.
Here are some questions for you. Let’s see if you are willing to answer them:
Do you think Paris is attempting to cheat him out of his money?
Do you think the employees he called out deserved to be dragged into this and have their names posted here?
Do you think he could solve all of this by flying to Vegas to
It's hard to comprehend when so many players consider a 30% tax on mtt winnings "a fair share".
And I warned those people multiple times that unless I receive a clarifying answer on what's going on I will go to forum to seek help.
I think I have all rights in the world to request the proper wire info to track it on my end.
There's a number of things they could've done differently, which raises suspicions, and I'm not calling Andrew Rich a vampire, only stating that he picked a vamprire picture for his linkedin page 😀
I was nice all the time. I asked a cage manager about using a Russian passport to receive the payout. He said "No problem".
Then they asked about my plans on how to receive a transfer via e-mail, without signing this e-mail, so I can't tell who was in charge of it.
Then they refused my wire info, and put my Russian address instead. And now they refuse to provide proper wire details.
They claim banks required additional information, and they gave it to them. But they never asked about my Canadian address, even "just in case"
I don't believe in such level of incompetence, sorry. Something else must be going on.
The basic rule of thumb with Caesars is, "Never attribute their actions to malice which can be explained by incompetence."
Except here I'm not even sure there's any incompetence going on. As others have explained, this is a complex situation, given your Canadian residency and Russian nationality, plus various US sanctions against Russia.
There is absolutely zero point zero chance that Caesars is trying to stiff you out of $188k. I can say this despite the presence of a vampire on Andy Rich's pro
This. The thread could be locked after this response.
"Chilling" in Canada sounds a lot like living there
You come to me to collect the money I owe you on the terms you chose.
I say sure come I welcome you.
You come and give me your banking info. I say no thanks I dont want to look at it, just fill out this form with no address and everything will be absolutely fine. I work here for 20 years and worked pretty much with every bank in North America.
My reputation is indisputable, so you agree.
Then I compose this wire transfer and without raising an eyebrow send it to fly. It just never occured to me that this address issue could be a problem.
The wire obviously gets stuck, and now the best I can do is to tell you that there is a delay and you can go find out in your bank, but I will not give you any information because I choose so. And I'm not even sure what you are asking about, and at this point this is all I can tell you. But, you can come and fill out a recall form but it usually takes 14 business days. It's a good option. (wink)
Would you be ok with that?
There was another option to negotiate over the phone and perhaps in person, but you already know my concerns..
p.s. i replied why. he replied with recall option
You come to me to collect the money I owe you on the terms you chose.
I say sure come I welcome you.
You come and give me your banking info. I say no thanks I dont want to look at it, just fill out this form with no address and everything will be absolutely fine. I work here for 20 years and worked pretty much with every bank in North America.
My reputation is indisputable, so you agree.
Then I compose this wire transfer and without raising an eyebrow send it to fly. It just never occured to me tha
You lost me when you said you thought Caesar's reputation was indisputable. They have consistently proven themselves incompetent in dealing with anything other than the most standard of situations.
You lost me when you said you thought Caesar's reputation was indisputable. They have consistently proven themselves incompetent in dealing with anything other than the most standard of situations.
Now we are talking. Most posters here suggest that these people are basically saints and work like a swiss clock, and I should respectfully do what they say.
https://www.wsop.com/2022/2023-WSOP-Tour...
The only rule about taxes here is that all players are subject to taxation.
I got my ceasars card with my russian id, entered a tournament, and all of a sudden I should pay taxes as a Canadian. Does not seem very logical.
It's a world championship and I want to represent Russia (not only because of the taxes, although it plays a major role, but also representing the school). Let's say these were Winter Olympics in USA, and I somehow made a cut, had a lucky run and received a bronze medal in bobsleigh competition. But I trained all year in Canada, should I be taxed as a Canadian?
It seems like OP’s real complaint should be toward the Russian government for taking senseless ongoing actions to provoke Western financial sanctions. The WSOP has no control over this. They aren’t trying to screw you over personally, and they don’t care whether you have to pay taxes on the money or not. Unless you have a rock solid plan to depose Putin, your best course of action would be to cancel the wire and collect the money in person.
