Covid-19 Discussion

It does because the threshold to justify even thinking about NPI mandates is "absolute certainty of a big positive public health effect if implemented".

Then you discuss tradeoffs.

If there is even a shade of doubt implementing mandate x doesn't automatically generate a massive public health gain, implementing that mandate should be illegal.

Tradeoffs instead are decided by political representatives (never "experts", who are the worst people in society to ask for tradeoff advices) as normal in democracies.

No the literal opposite is true.

Precautionary principle doesn't mean "go allin in front of the unknown" it actually means "don't deviate from decisions and norms developed in normal times unless you are absolutely certain it's indispensable to deviate"

Except you cut the part when I don't deny it happened, I deny it is a worse thing than lockdowns themselves

No they didn’t tend up with same numbers
Jfc the guy can’t even facking read !
U win troll
Was nice dunking u .
Bye

You speak as if these decisions were made overnight the day after the pandemic started. They instead occurred over a period of time as the pandemic took hold and the death rate continued to rise. There were no certainties, and not taking action in the face of an uncertain mortality rate is not an option for public health officials. That option is only available for those with the benefit of hindsight, who can selectively pick and choose decisions based on everything that is known now rather than what is known then.

You also are stuck in binary thinking, as if there's no course of action between doing nothing and going "all-in".

You refer to "norms" as if there is a set rule book to follow, including mention of 1918. You couldn't spread a pandemic across continents in 12 hours in 1918. If you ever find yourself unlucky enough to need emergency care for an accident or serious disease, ask the attending to treat you with 1918 infectious disease knowledge and medicine and see if you prefer the outcome.

u just cant argue with someone thinking a 300% to 400% increase in infections rates and death rates while having an entire healthcare system collapsing in just 3 months has no significant statistical importance...

its like arguing with someone thinking 2+2=fish.

Healthcare system collapsing is completely overblown. Every single country that eventually mass re-opened handled it fine in the long run. Difficult 2 months and that's it.

Compare that to the trillions of dollars of dollars that we lit on fire globally to alleviate the burden. What a massive waste of money for marginal increase in return.

It was completely overblown and the fish fell for it.

Infection rates alone are not important. Only death rates amongst the old. We could have easily locked down the olds and mass burn through the rest of the population. Infection rates for everyone under 55 are completely irrelevant.

But we had cowards in charge and a bunch of lemmings as citizens.

Everything about this virus itself was a near certainty by mid April 2020.

We knew the death rates amongst demographics, we knew it was a gigantic nothing burger for the young. We knew with certainty by mid April 2020 that lockdowns were absolutely failure of a policy to kill off covid. The only sensible thing to do at that point end of April 2020 was the mass re-openings for everyone under 65 and let it rip everywhere.

By then the narratives about lockdowns changed and kept changing to suit political agendas.

- 2 weeks of lockdown to Curb the spread -> Which ended up failing completely after 2 weeks.
- 3-4 more weeks of lockdown to kill it off -> Which ended up failing massively. No western country ever managed to kill it off. Unless it was some random isolated island New Zealand.
- Keep locking business and people down no matter the cost to kill off covid -> Massive mistake. Never ended up killing off covid and blew through trillions globally.
- Have to continue lockdowns because of long covid + fight off mutations -> Completely irrelevant, long covid not worth continued lockdown costs. All of the mutations evolved globally.

If the infection rate of covid was 2.0 (so it was being spread rampantly) and everyone was wearing masks indoors in well ventilated areas then the infection rate would drop to between 1.3 and 1.5. Which wouldn't stop the spread of Covid. But it would reduce the amount of infections which in turn would save thousands of lives because by 2021 when the vaccines had come out getting infected would happen less frequently and would be much less deadly.

However, even in a perfect world where Trump had distributed free masks to every state to hand out for free and yes the masks had his signature on them, people are not going to wear them perfectly and there will be violations but still the infection rate would have gone down a bit and lives would have been saved. In reality it would have dropped the infection rate down closer to 50% rather than 70% but all indoor places were not ventilated well and some would have very close to 0% reduction in Covid spread (probably close to 10%). And it would have reduced the overall % of deaths in the US from 18% of total deaths in the world. And it might have reduced it enough that Trump would have been re-elected.

In New York we had mask laws for a long time and after the initial hailstorm (including the sending back of infected old people to their nursing homes...) NY has done exceptionally well in reducing the overall Covid infection and death rates. yes a lot of it had to do with the vaccine but a lot of it had to do with helping to prevent the spread before and during the initial rollout of the vaccine.

My daughter as an EMT during Covid in 2020 wore a mask in the ambulance at all times and helped apply masks to patients they were taking to the hospital at least one per day who had Covid. And she never caught Covid and my wife, son, and I living in the same house never caught Covid before the vaccines came out.

The other thing i should mention about masks is that when I went to the Venetian in Vegas in 2021 summertime the rule was that people who were vaccinated did not have to wear masks in Casinos but those who hadn't been vaccinated did have to. Yet nobody checked for proof of vaccination which was unbelievably stupid. I would say roughly 10% of the players in the tournaments I played in wore masks. And when i would sit next to one of them I would let them know that I had been vaccinated because I knew that a lot of people were lying and just didn't want to wear masks. And every single person I said that to who was wearing a mask told me they were vaccinated and that they were a doctor. I was stunned of course and then realized I didn't know two things. One was that the vaccine wasn't going to prevent infection (which turned out to be true though it does reduce infection for the first few months after the shot). And the second was that masks could help prevent people from getting infected. Each doctor had a reason. For some it was they dealt with older patients. For others they were married and for others they had children and didn't want their children to potentially spread it to someone older who hadn't yet been vaccinated.

Now of course the wearing of masks will primarily help those who have not been vaccinated. I am happy to do that especially for people who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. But for those people that die who could have been vaccinated I no longer care really. Their choice, like smoking cigarettes or doing drugs or alcohol.

This was the reason why so many nursing homes had a rampant spread and death rate. Younger people who worked there and didn't care if they got infected. This would be true of any work environment where young and old people worked together (like those midwest factories where so many people died).

I do think that with schools they could have let kids get covid (like they do colds and the Flu) and just make sure that all teachers over 50 (maybe even over 40) were at home. But part of the problem was that it took a while to know that under 40 people had virtually no deaths.

My preference would have been to do what they did in South Korea which was test early and often and shut down buildings where there were more than 3 cases for 2 weeks. I would also have given older people an option to work from home. But in truth in the OUS we did not have sufficient tests to do this.

Should the converse also be true? Should the unvaccinated be like "**** those who get myocarditis I don't care anymore?"

You cannot close off the rest of the 98% of the population because of the 2% work in nursing homes. It wasn't economically feasible back then, and its even more obvious today with how bad the current state of our government finances are in the west.

You lock down the olds and nursing homes, put in strict covid restrictions for those working there, print money and ship it to them to alleviate their burden. Let it rip through for everyone else.

Absolutely!*

Its not true of course (myocarditis is not causing deaths in any significant numbers as a result of being vaccinated) but then I really don't care what dumb people are thinking as long as I can read them. That is if I am playing poker with them. If they aren't poker players then by all means!!! They are entitled to their own opinions and they get to live with themselves for the rest of their lives.

*It is important to note that even for young men there are more lives saved by being vaccinated than lives lost from myocarditis incidents so the real answer is please keep your opinion to yourself if that is what you think.

young male adults risked more by taking a car to get to where they got vaccinated that they did from the vaccine *and from covid*.

Have you been in a nursing home lately? The youngs could take every precaution known to man but once COVID gets in that nursing home it's over for the olds. A lot of them would be better off being 6 feet under than the "living" they are doing.

Nursing homes are unbelievably depressing places. And the great ex-governor of NY sent people with COVID back into these "homes."

after seeing how it was handled in china

i was in an absolute state of shock how we handled our testing and vaccine centers - it felt like if you weren't sick before going to those places, you certainly would be once it was all said and done

Nope because when u end up in intensive care , they save your life not just for covid but other incidents , sickness , etc .

And again there was 400% increase rates in death , not just infections ……
When u got all your intensive care crumbling over covid cases , u get more problems because u can’t take care of emergency cases that aren’t from COVID-19 .

You and all the others are just always just seeing about covid without ever taking into consideration :
Ho fack , what happens if someone gets sick but can’t receive healthcare because the hospital are already over 300% occupations by « covid, vaccine, lockdown deniers … »
It ain’t just about covid !
It’s about hospitals having the capacities to respond to everyone .
And probably many that end up in intensive care from covid would of died if they wouldn’t receives intensives cares .

So u say it’s overblown ?
Well I trust more military and national defense specialist then your opinion, sorry to say .

And u say it’s overblown ?
That was only 3 months -> u think it wouldn’t of been worst if it lasted 6months or 1 years ?
Yeah right ……

Given that it's the immune response causing the inflammation, those that are getting myocarditis via vaccination would also get it via infection. It's much more common and severe from infection as well.

that has always been the case to some extent, COVID "management" just made it worse, but it's a conversation most people don't want to have.

Would you stop ?
Canadian population 60 years plus is like 18% so it’s already like 1 person in 5 that can have massive problem from covid , not 1 in 50 like alluding too …..
We don’t have a 1970s demographic style for very long time now !

Yeah, but when you see the same thing consistently happening in multiple places such as at the county level as the author outlines in the article then questions need to be asked. It may not be definitive proof but it's a signal that points to something going on that should be investigated at the very least. Something non-covid is causing excess mortality to consistently coincide with vaccine uptake rates across multiple locations. What is that something?

WTf are you talking about? Stop what?

We lock down the olds, 65+ and let it rip everyone else.

Nursing home caretakers would also be placed under strict restrictions and we would print money to alleviate their increased burdens.

If people could quantify the lockdown costs they would never do another lockdown ever again if another hypothetical covid came around.

Over the years, I get the same pushback: "What you are recommending is letting the olds die off."

Answer: No I am not, we lock the olds down and have tight control over who comes and takes care of them.

The mental block is right here. People invested all their mental energy into rationalizing the benefits of lockdowns that they are simply unable to say they were wrong and that better alternative courses were out there.