Ethics of professional poker
Idk if this is where I should post those but wtf. This is an issue that's been getting to me more and more over years, and it's getting the point where I'm starting to question whether or not I can keep doing what I do and be ok with myself.
I've been playing for a living for a little over a decade now. For most of that time I didn't have any ethical problems with the predatory attitude necessary to maintain to ecosystem. This was largely because most of the fish id encounter were rec gamblers with disposable income who didn't mind losing. Over the past few years, though, I've been encountering a different type of fish more and more often. I'm talking about a gambling addict who's very possibly risking his kids college tuition. Obviously I can't be sure about anyones circumstances, but over time I've come to notice a level of desperation in certain players that's definitely not indicative of a hobbyist with disposable income.
I feel like I'm playing a part in ruining people's lives. Has anyone else struggled with this at all? It's no secret that gambling addiction is a serious thing. Of course there's the rationalizations like 'they would be losing to somebody no matter what, it may as well be me. ' that rationalization worked for me for a time, but face it - it's the same rationalization everyone who exploits others for personal gain uses. I'm wondering, how much is too much? If anyone else struggled with this, I'd like to know - how do you handle it? It's getting to a point where I'm considering a career change despite the fact that I'm doing perfectly well at the moment and have no other complaints so to speak.
Okay, OP.
I'm sure you've played poker in Vegas. In doing so, I'm sure you've walked by about 10,000+ slot machines within a span of hours.
Does a casino have a moral obligation to tell their clients to stop being degenerates and stop playing -EV games and to stop liquidating their financial accounts to continue playing?
No, their only obligation is to tell their clients to gamble responsibly and to know when to quit. Those two things, are kind of part of being an adult.
If you are a pro poker p
Since when were casinos ever considered paragons of virtue? Did anybody route for the casino in the Oceans 11 movies? They're built like mazes and have no clocks.
As for whether or not I'm cut out for the game, so far my ethical qualms haven't effected my play. It's human nature to doubt ones actions. Only sociopaths are ever completely and totally sure of themselves.
They're not, that's my point.
Did anybody route for the casino in the Oceans 11 movies? They're built like mazes and have no clocks.
I'm not sure what equivalence this has? Do you not silently root for yourself when you play?
Or do you root for your opponents to scoop the pot when they have 4 outs on the river w/ 1 card to come?
As for whether or not I'm cut out for the game, so far my ethical qualms haven't effected my play. It's human nature to doubt ones actions. Only sociopaths are ever completely and totally sure of themselves.
You came here and asked about the ethics of poker, and asked us if you should feel sorry for your opponents torching their life-roll to you.
If you truly feel bad about being the person who receives money, while another person is ruining their family... If it impacts your consciousness enough to come and ask us about the ethics, you must feel like you are doing something somewhat unethical.
Why even continue playing? Maybe you should retire and quit while you're ahead. The only person who can truly tell you if this is unethical is you. You are the one who has to look at yourself in the mirror everyday, not me.
I can promise you one thing about degenerates. If it's not poker, it'll be something else.
Quite frankly, poker is the slow bleed for most degens compared other games they will walk by to get to the poker room.
I'm not a doctor, I'm not qualified to call anyone a sociopath... but yes, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of those in the poker world.
If we talk about unethical, for me it is grooming the whale and pretending to be their friend as long as you get to play with them but your goal is just to make as much money out of them as possible.
That's bad. Sort of like strippers who sit with customers and pretend they are interested in them. Taking compulsive gamblers money is also bad. On the other hand, you are providing entertainment for non compulsive players. Furthermore, not yet mentioned, is the fact that you are providing incentive for people to study a game that has many aspects to it where getting good at it can provide benefits to them in other areas of life.
I didn't ask anybody how I should feel about anything. I simply expressed my ethical qualms and asked if anybody shared them. Some do, some don't, but it's evident that the predatory elements of the game cut both ways for some of us.
Talking about how the gambling industry in general and equating it to an individual player's experiences is simply 'whataboutism' and doesn't serve a purpose beyond cheap rationalization. Also, the whole 'why not just give them their money back' doesn't work either. That reminds of when people show sympathy for the homeless and haters say stuff like 'if you care so much, buy them houses. ' that's seriously seeing in black and white.
I didn't ask anybody how I should feel about anything. I simply expressed my ethical qualms
I asked ChatGPT if an "Ethical Qualm" is a feeling.
Spoiler
Yes, an ethical qualm can be considered a feeling. It refers to a sense of unease, discomfort, or apprehension about the morality or ethical correctness of a situation, decision, or action. This feeling arises from an individual's moral principles, beliefs, or values when they are in conflict with a particular course of action or situation. Ethical qualms prompt introspection and ethical reasoning, reflecting a person's internal struggle to align their actions with their moral compass.
and asked if anybody shared them. Some do, some don't, but it's evident that the predatory elements of the game cut both ways for some of us.
Poker has predatory elements? Is a this a Freudian slip?
That's your words... Not mine. Again, if YOU FEEL that way, you are the one with the problem (albeit a moral problem)... Not the person who will come and give their money away to the next pro to come and sit down in your would-be seat.
I personally don't think there's ANY predatory element in the game of poker, provided it's an honest game. You didn't force anyone at gunpoint to go remove money from their bank account. Playing a zero sum game that's nearly solved is predatory?
Talking about how the gambling industry in general and equating it to an individual player's experiences is simply 'whataboutism' and doesn't serve a purpose beyond cheap rationalization. Also, the whole 'why not just give them their money back' doesn't work either. That reminds of when people show sympathy for the homeless and haters say stuff like 'if you care so much, buy them houses. ' that's seriously seeing in black and white.
It's not my individual experience. Degens gonna degen. That ain't new. You will find very few people who will disagree with that statement on this board.
Perhaps the decision is black and white.
You can either show up and play, or not. It's that simple. No one is making you go to the poker room and ruin someone's life.
These are the most noble professions but they all link back to government funding that taxes your income, car, every time you purchase something, home, etc. Government is corrupt as it gets - hell they even created the IRS to come after you and destroy you financially if you **** them. Not surprising these positions pay very little - government loves to **** people.
Been there.
Elliot Roe's new book has helped. Refocusing on how development as a poker professional and development as a human being can go hand in hand and that, if you do this on a long enough time frame, you'll be the type of person who can spread good in the world, be it in raising a family, running a business, charitable giving, etc. It's a utilitarian argument and I understand that it doesn't really overcome the guilty feelings about taking advantage of degens. Rather it's just a reframe to make poker meaningful instead of just a soulless money vacuuming pursuit.
If you are feeling this way, then why keep doing it?
Why do you -want- to try to come up with an excuse for doing something you believe is wrong?
Poker is almost never going to be the most profitable profession a person could choose.
Most people who choose it do so because it has other benefits that they believe will make them happier than other career options.
But if it's -not- making you happier, then what's the point?
Poker is a game. It's intended to be entertainment. It's not intended to be productive.
If you're trying to use if for something other than what's intended, it's not surprising you're experiencing cognitive dissonance.
I never said anything about being productive. I don't care about the whole 'useful to society or not' thing. I absolutely love the game and there are a million upsides and ways it benefits me. This is just one aspect of it that's bothered me more and more over the years. Nowhere near enough to quit, but certainly enough to reflect.
Btw, you're sort of missing 'cognitive dissonance. ' CD is conditioning to believe anything that reinforces your preconceptions. That's doesn't sound like what you meant.
I have no problems taking money from people who are trying to take my money, and I expect the same from everyone else on the table.
It's only unethical if you're cheating. In a square game, everyone is bound by the same rules and free to play or abstain as they choose. You might say a compulsive gambler has lost the power of choice, but that is a personal problem for them, not one that necessitates that other people abstain from an activity that is not a personal problem for them.
A store that sells kitchen knives is not immoral because one guy uses a knife they bought there to commit a murder.
A liquor store is not immoral because some people don't drink responsibly.
A casino or poker pro is not immoral because some people don't gamble responsibly.
And even if some places/people stopped offering knives/liquor/poker, sick people would still find a way to get their fix.
Damnnn Deann was getting groomed
Poker is a moderately unethical way to make a living, by most perspectives.
OP's instincts seem to lean to virtue ethics. What kind of person do you want to be? Yeah, maybe the degen looses all regardless but I don't want to be a person who lives off the self destructive addiction of others.
Tommy Angelo addressed a similar concern by saying you can do your meritorious deeds elsewhere. Since your work does no good, and some bad, you can beef up the charity/volunteer stuff and still lead a decent life.
I shifted away from poker myself. If you can apply the same skills to sports, or other stuff... I feel no guilt at all taking a bookies money. I still play poker and I kind of feel bad even beating tourists who can afford it, worse pros, whatever.
It's true that in the US many jobs are far worse and many more are just as bad. You can think, at least you don't work for an arms dealer. That's not just a rationalization. It is not easy to make a living harmlessly. You don't have to beat yourself up for not being perfect.
If you do switch careers, I'd switch to something clearly positive. Going into a different morally murky field like advertising or working for Pepsico or one that's only slightly better isn't worth it.
This shouldn't be the poker player's burden.
If playing against a specific player makes you uncomfortable for any reason, just request a table change, or leave.
If you are playing in a licensed and regulated environment, the casino/poker room employees are trained on how to identify and deal with compulsive gamblers. Why would I volunteer to do their job for them?
I'm not a licensed mental health professional, nor did I go through the state mandated compulsive gambler identification training that casino employees are required to do.... so me making an assessment like that is out of my wheelhouse, even if I play with the person regularly.
On the other hand, you are providing entertainment for non compulsive players. Furthermore, not yet mentioned, is the fact that you are providing incentive for people to study a game that has many aspects to it where getting good at it can provide benefits to them in other areas of life.
I don't disagree with part at all. I do just want to add one thing to this thought.
It's my personal belief that addiction is a disease. I didn't always feel this way. I have someone in my family who is an addiction counselor and this person changed my mind.
There's vigorous debate in the medical community about this topic: Do addictions fit into the disease model?
People have had entire TED talks on this topic. I find it interesting. You might find yourself on the other side of the debate.
I didn't even know there was still a debate regarding the status of addiction as a disease. I thought it's now almost unanimously accepted. Obviously the disease factor is much more evident with drugs like opiates that cause physical dependencies, but even with psychological addiction, engaging in the behaviour you're addicted to causes the brain to release endorphins. Stopping said behaviour causes the brain to fail to produce natural endorphins. The idea that addiction is a moral failing is antiquated nonsense.
Think about what these gambling addicts do when they win lots of money?
Do they put money to the side for their kids tuition and stuff like that? No. They delude themselves. They play bigger games, they think they're part of some friend group and go to private games where they start lending people money and/or start to lose their own money. They then stop talking to these "friends" and play low stakes poker to only do it all over again when they win.
It's pathetic.
Sure it's sad seeing these people when they don't have these wins and only lose, but we know what they're like and how they start behaving when they win.
Nah I can't feel sorry for someone who gets blessed with a second chance and doesn't learn from their mistakes
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I’ve always had moral qualms myself. I guess I’ll settle on this compromise, a redistribution of wealth theory: I’ll use the money I win from them better than the problem gamblers will, so taking their money is a net benefit to society. I’m saving and investing my profits to eventually do bigger and better things that will help civilization, while they’re just going to waste the money on something, whether it’s gambling or other bad financial habits. Somewhat paternalistic, but that’s my take right now.
I don't make anyone gamble. Now if someone is trying to quit gambling and I was trying to recruit them to a poker game I think that's really unethical and scummy.
I won't play with obvious gambling addicts and you shouldn't either because it IS unethical and YOU ARE taking part in ruining their lives.
I won't play with obvious gambling addicts and you shouldn't either because it IS unethical and YOU ARE taking part in ruining their lives.
What makes someone an “obvious gambling addict” anyway? How can you tell?
That description could very well describe most of my plo player pool, depending on how broadly you define it, lol.
