Two KK Hands Facing Massive All-Ins Pre
$1/$1 home game, no rake
Game is less aggressive than usual this particular night but rare to see a lot of 4b! pre in general and get AIPF this deep
1st Hand:
6-handed
Villain: $302 (Usually doesn't get out of line, not super aggressive overall)
Hero covers
Villain straddles to $2, Hero opens $7 in HJ w K♣K♦, SB calls, Villain raises to $23, Hero raises to $65, SB folds, Villain turbo-jams for $302 and sits back in his chair while taking a drink
2nd Hand:
4-handed
Villain: $425 (Winningest player in the game, very aggressive pre, makes a fair amount of tighter laydowns to me preflop)
Hero: $380
UTG opens for $3, Hero raises to $11 OTB w K♦K♥, Villain raises to $31, UTG folds, Hero raises to $75, Villain turbo-jams for $425
16 Replies
Both are gross spots, and both are spots where I just sigh fold and never show.
Hand 1 is weird, because you are technically only 150bb deep ... so would normally shrug with KK and never fold.
You don't need to make the 4bet that big either.
But reads could make this AA/KK only, esp. if you don't think that V thinks it's only 150bb.
In hand 2 you are 380bb deep and villain cold 4bet from SB or BB?
I would start by calling.
If you are going to 5bet, again it doesn't need to be that big ... I would probably sigh and call it off just in case he's going nuts with AK or something, but wouldn't be shocked if fold is better.
Hate both situations.
I'm more inclined to consider a call in hand 2. Villain probably can be doing this sometimes with AK. If he can be doing it often enough to justify calling is hard to judge.
Borderline but leaning Fold #1, call #2. You should almost never be folding KK pre but those looking out the window reads are pretty insane. Turbo jam is generally weakness though,
Also its a home game, you gotta show so you can talk trash if youre right and they can if youre wrong, part of the fun.
Call both, people are stupid.
I mostly disagree.
Esp. preflop it very often means exactly what it says "I didn't have to think about this", which usually means "my hand is good enough I'm never folding and/or will say it was a cooler if I lose."
The big thing is if V in H1 thinks QQ or even JJ/TT qualify (I've seen enough people snap call 4bet shoves for 150bb with TT+ that seemed tight otherwise).
With the 2nd hand I'd assume QQ would think from a better player, but I know all too well that when being aggressive AK looks like the nuts even when deep and math says we have to call it off vs. a range of: AA,KK,AK
In some spots on later streets it can mean something weaker, Eg. I have a straight draw and I know V has an overpair, so I'm shoving any flush card that hits ... without properly taking your time to think that if you had the flush you wouldn't want to make it obvious.
Very rarely I've been in spots preflop where I knew someone was 3betting light a lot, so I knew I'd 4bet A4s/A5s if they 3bet ... but I think I always took a few seconds, and those have come up like 0.1% of the time for me playing live.
I would fold in both spots.
I am not folding either in a 1/1 home game.
Snap call in hand 1.
Hand 2 i flat the 4bet pre.
I think you are giving these people too much credit. Its not like they are super nits and we are only 6 handed. They could for sure do this with AK and QQ too. Assigning them only AA when they jam i think is wrong.
If im villain in hand 1, I would play exactly like this in with AK. Its 6 handed. Im blocking aces and kings, i know that hero has a fold button and im a flip against QQ even if you do call. So I jam and confidently take a drink. If i had aces I might think a minute because im considering if i want to just flat and slow play.
I fold #1 unless I'm fine with being on the bad end of the classic AA vs KK showdown. #2, I call and happy either way.
Ugh. Fold both.
But MAYBE call in H2, only because V is capable and OOP, and there's no 6B size he can take that doesn't commit him to calling off the rest if you jam.
H1 - Passive V 5B-jams over 4x. Never worse than AK, and almost always AA.
H2 - Aggro V 6B-jams over 4x. Almost always AA/KK/AK, occasionally QQ.
If V 4B-jammed for under 3x in either hand, sure, call off with KK. But 5B-jams and 6B-jams for over 4x the last bet are rarely not AA.
This is why I fold both.
Hand 1: Villain: $302 (Usually doesn't get out of line, not super aggressive overall)
Hand 2: (Winningest player in the game, very aggressive pre, makes a fair amount of tighter laydowns to me preflop)
Of course, we don't know how Vs' see Hero. If Hero is a maniac, overly aggressive player, maybe he should call, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
$1/$1 home game, no rake
Villain straddles to $2, Hero opens $7 in HJ w K♣K♦, SB calls, Villain raises to $23, Hero raises to $65, SB folds, Villain turbo-jams for $302 and sits back in his chair while taking a drink
2nd Hand:
4-handed
Villain: $425 (Winningest player in the game, very aggressive pre, makes a fair amount of tighter lay downs to me pre-flop)
Hero: $380
UTG opens for $3, Hero raises to $11 OTB w K♦K♥, Villain raises to $31, UTG folds, Hero raises to $75, Villain turbo-jams for $425
It sounds like a really low skilled game just from the structure. Why not play 1/2 if you're allowing min straddles with a $300 buy-in? Nobody turbo-jamming has any real skill at all. We have no idea of how stack or how loose the game usually plays.
What's the range of each of these guys when they do this? How much of that range are you ahead? Do they have any AK in there? KK? QQ? Make sure that when you're there and you're thinking of that 4 bet that you're thinking of what you'll do if they do A or B. I'd ask things like how wide are your 3 betting ranges and what they think of that but really it's not that skilled of a game.
If they have something in their range other than AA and KK when they do this then call. Otherwise, the odds aren't there.
Finally someone else here gets human psychology.
