Education in the United States
We have a thread devoted to academic freedom at universities, and we have a thread devoted to whether higher education should be subsidized. This thread is a landing spot for discussion of other issues related to education -- issues like school integration, pedagogy, the influence of politics on education (and vice versa), charter schools, public v. private schools, achievement gaps, and gerrymandering of school districts.
I'll start the discussion with two articles. The first deals with a major changes in the public school system in NYC.
NYC's public schools are highly segregated for such a diverse city. Last Friday, Bill DeBlasio announced the following:
Middle schools will see the most significant policy revisions. The city will eliminate all admissions screening for the schools for at least one year, the mayor said. About 200 middle schools — 40 percent of the total — use metrics like grades, attendance and test scores to determine which students should be admitted. Now those schools will use a random lottery to admit students.
In doing this, Mr. de Blasio is essentially piloting an experiment that, if deemed successful, could permanently end the city’s academically selective middle schools, which tend to be much whiter than the district overall.
DeBlasio also announced that:
New York will also eliminate a policy that allowed some high schools to give students who live nearby first dibs at spots — even though all seats are supposed to be available to all students, regardless of where they reside.
The system of citywide choice was implemented by former Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg in 2004 as part of an attempt to democratize high school admissions. But Mr. Bloomberg exempted some schools, and even entire districts, from the policy, and Mr. de Blasio did not end those carve outs.
The most conspicuous example is Manhattan’s District 2, one of the whitest and wealthiest of the city’s 32 local school districts. Students who live in that district, which includes the Upper East Side and the West Village, get priority for seats in some of the district’s high schools, which are among the highest-performing schools in the city.
No other district in the city has as many high schools — six — set aside for local, high-performing students.
Many of those high schools fill nearly all of their seats with students from District 2 neighborhoods before even considering qualified students from elsewhere. As a result, some schools, like Eleanor Roosevelt High School on the Upper East Side, are among the whitest high schools in all of New York City.
Here is the New York Times article that describes the changes:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/nyreg...
Obvious questions for discussion include:
- How large a priority should cities place on ensuring that city schools are representative of the city as a whole?
- Are measures like the ones that DeBlasio is implementing likely to be effective in making schools more representative?
- Will these measures have unintended (or intended) consequences that extend far beyond changing the representativeness of city schools?
I'll have you know we can order pizza for the office whenever we like. In a small business with people who appreciate a long leash, such perks aren't abused so they continue into the future.
Our holiday bonuses vary wildly. Two weeks pay on the low end. Six months on the higher end. Uncapped for people who close deals.
Still not sure why you quoted my post though. I didn't advocate for cutting teacher pay or restructuring the overall compensation. I do advocate for cutting the dead weight, though. They know who they are, and the union isn't doing the district any favors by protecting them.
imo if the schools went full private you'd end up with a handful of companies in each region (eventually countrywide) in the school business. Like how Tylenol costs $50 a pill in a hospital or the dod paying $10 for a paperclip or whatever, the govt (taxpayers) would start getting gouged for everything, costs cut everywhere for more profit, etc... also would not be inclusive at all. Just because a mom in Compton wants to send her kid to school in Beverly hills doesn't mean it's going to happen. The list of applicants for the top schools will be a mile long and she'll be stuck sending her kid to the local private school ran by the Wal family or some ****. Of course there will be success stories in places but shitty neighborhoods are still going to have shitty schools overall.
And once privatized the taxpayers will have little say on how the schools are ran.
I wouldn't argue that overall the cost may be flat but personally I'd rather my waste of tax dollars go to overpaying a janitor at an inner city school than the pockets of another board of directors.
You guys are missing the part where these vouchers are fixed funding tied to the level of the corresponding school district, and they aren't selling healing crystals or crypto scams. Parents are going to figure out really ****ing quick whether or not their child knows how to read.
All it does is expand the current charter system and prevent the public district admins from hard-capping the number of competing schools.
This is not new tech. It's about giving parents with kids in failing districts the choice to find an alternative to failure. It also gives a shot in the arm to some parochial schools who will be able to sign up some kids who don't have parents with a lot of disposable income. Frankly, we need a little more Jesus in this country.
the worst parents, those more susceptible to scams because they don't care or are incapable of choosing, will keep sending the kids to public school anyway because that would be the default option so they don't have to fill any form and that's enough for them
imo if the schools went full private you'd end up with a handful of companies in each region (eventually countrywide) in the school business. Like how Tylenol costs $50 a pill in a hospital or the dod paying $10 for a paperclip or whatever, the govt (taxpayers) would start getting gouged for everything, costs cut everywhere for more profit, etc... also would not be inclusive at all. Just because a mom in Compton wants to send her kid to school in Beverly hills doesn't mean it's going to happen.
if the top school has a long waiting list it opens new locations hiring the decent teachers fired by the bad school which closed because it spent too much on "black history month" celebrations or whatever non educational destination of funds the left can think of.
shitty schools will still exist because bad students will still ecist.
but at least less money will be sent the way of the Democratic party or it's wide range of associated institutions (like all DEI training and so on), and that would already be a huge victory for society
Always amazes me how people can look at the US education system and say that more charter/private schools is going to be some kind of magical solution - that the problem is public schools and how inefficient they are, the indoctrination, the teachers unions, blah blah blah. Meanwhile, their northern neighbour has a strong public system, likely more of what one would call "indoctrination" given that politics here is to the left of the US, strong teachers unions, and yet...finds themselves in the top 5-10 of the PISA rankings year after year, decade after decade. And if one looks at the top of the PISA rankings and then the percentages of students in private schools in different countries, no obvious correlation. Most countries at the top of PISA have very low private school % - but there are definite exceptions, and it likely very much depends on how the private/public system works in each country. Regardless, what makes people think privatizing education is the best solution is beyond me. From my observation, the problems with US education go far beyond some simplistic private vs. public issue.
If you think you have a simple solution to a problem with a large and complex system, you're likely wrong.
How to be at the top of the PISA charts: Be a homogenous Asian country.
Kudos to Canada for being the first country to break the mold, though.
How to be at the top of the PISA charts: Be a homogenous Asian country.
Kudos to Canada for being the first country to break the mold, though.
not many immigrants in India afaik
Switzerland isn't doing bad in PISA either and they speak 3 languages among 9m people and have a deep religious divide as well
Always amazes me how people can look at the US education system and say that more charter/private schools is going to be some kind of magical solution - that the problem is public schools and how inefficient they are, the indoctrination, the teachers unions, blah blah blah. Meanwhile, their northern neighbour has a strong public system, likely more of what one would call "indoctrination" given that politics here is to the left of the US, strong teachers unions, and yet...finds themselves in the
nothing magical bobo, a lot of students would still be stuck on terrible situations anyway (because they are terrible students).
but even saving 5% of the already outrageous costs while delivering a small improvement in educational outcomes and most importantly by dismantling a core democratic constituency, would be aassive improvement.
as for why Canada does a lot better it's illegal in this forum afaik to point to the very obvious reason why that is the case
India is horribly broken in just about every possible way. If there's a category, just assume they're a negative outlier in it.
PISA rankings:
Singapore
China
Japan
Taiwan
South Korea
Hong Kong
Estonia
Canada
I admit I wouldn't have pictured Estonia near the top of this list, either.
It's clear though, if you want schooling done right, you put the Asian families in charge. This tracks in America, too, whether it offends your sense of political correctness or not.
India is horribly broken in just about every possible way. If there's a category, just assume they're a negative outlier in it.
PISA rankings:
Singapore
China
Japan
Taiwan
South Korea
Hong Kong
Estonia
Canada
I admit I wouldn't have pictured Estonia near the top of this list, either.
It's clear though, if you want schooling done right, you put the Asian families in charge. This tracks in America, too, whether it offends your sense of political correctness or not.
Obviously by "Asian" you mean the American definition, which is the good Asians (stir fried rice), not the bad Asians (buildings go boom), right?
How to be at the top of the PISA charts: Be a homogenous Asian country.
Kudos to Canada for being one of many countries to break the non-existent mold, though.
FYP.
Does homogeneity help? Quite possibly, yes. Clearly not the only factor, though.
as for why Canada does a lot better it's illegal in this forum afaik to point to the very obvious reason why that is the case
Ah yes, must be all those dumb black people, amirite? 🙄
Wb Bobo, I was beginning to think the other mods had mutinied and left you in the trunk of a car in some motel parking lot.
LOL, thanks. Was away for a few weeks in Sicily (Hi, Luciom). Trips usually don't keep me away from the forums, but this time I decided to stay off as I'm looking to be here a lot less going forward anyway.
Obviously by "Asian" you mean the American definition, which is the good Asians (stir fried rice), not the bad Asians (buildings go boom), right?
Pretty much, and I think everyone was picking up what I was putting down.
They get work done in the USA as well.
The Science chart is essentially identical to the literacy one.
Well, clearly not everyone, since someone brought up India as a counterexample.
I don't know about the rest of Europe, but when we say "Asian" in the UK, we mean poppadoms and curry, not geishas, since that's the source of most of our Asians.
Well, clearly not everyone, since someone brought up India as a counterexample.
I don't know about the rest of Europe, but when we say "Asian" in the UK, we mean poppadoms and curry, not geishas, since that's the source of most of our Asians.
we don't use "Asians" to talk about both Chinese and Bangladeshi and Philippine people in Italy (we have plenty of immigrants from those 3 countries) because it would be absolutely ret arded to do so from any point of view.
no one on the left or the right does that here, it doesn't even cross our collective mind that there might be a useful reason to lump togheter ultra catholic Philippinos with ultra atheists Chinese people for example
we don't use "Asians" to talk about both Chinese and Bangladeshi and Philippine people in Italy (we have plenty of immigrants from those 3 countries) because it would be absolutely ret arded to do so from any point of view.
no one on the left or the right does that here, it doesn't even cross our collective mind that there might be a useful reason to lump togheter ultra catholic Philippinos with ultra atheists Chinese people for example
You don't use the word "oriental" or "middle eastern" or their equivalents?
Luciom,
Enough with this. We get it. You are dying to explain at length why you think black people are dumb. You feel aggrieved that you aren't able to do so without risking a ban. To all that, I say tough ****. If it is so important to you to be able to air your views on that topic, then go somewhere else.
Obviously by "Asian" you mean the American definition, which is the good Asians (stir fried rice), not the bad Asians (buildings go boom), right?
I posted indians (who stayed in India) being among the worst ever recorded in PISA tests because in the USA indians are a very successful ethnic group, with incomes above the white average and some key representatives in the upper echelon of actual power.
the CEOs of 2 of the most powerful and important companies in the history of America (and the world) are indians (MSFT and GOOG)
it's illegal to even assume that might be one of the reasons bobo you must know as an admin
If you actually think that's the reason why Canada is getting better results than the US, you have further demonstrated your lack of knowledge of this subject, but of course that never stops you from having strong opinions you believe to be worthy of churning out 40 or 50 posts per day about. And how you think privatizing the education system would solve this is beyond me. Perhaps your solution includes special schools for dumb people from undesirable demographics?
Edit to add: Oops, sorry Rococo, posted this before I saw your last post. I'll stop poking at that.
I posted indians (who stayed in India) being among the worst ever recorded in PISA tests because in the USA indians are a very successful ethnic group, with incomes above the white average and some key representatives in the upper echelon of actual power.
the CEOs of 2 of the most powerful and important companies in the history of America (and the world) are indians (MSFT and GOOG)
It's cool, dude, chill, I have Indian friends too.
No, really, I do, there are loads of Indians here, hard not to.
