are 4bet bluffs just torching cash

Depends on stack depth and player. Generally speaking, 4-bet bluffing in low stakes isn't a thing.

There isn't a one size fits all answer. It depends on the villain and stack depth. In general, we should 4bet more linearly. Generally no I wouldn't fold AK to a 3bet unless I know for sure they only flat hands like AK and only raise like QQ+.

If they have hands like KQ (esp off), AQo, then we can definitely 4bet linearly more focused around AK and QQ+. At 100bb I like 4bet jamming AKo a lot and this can be balanced by also including KK. Generally I am small 4betting AA and AKs pure and mostly 4betting KK. In really tight configurations esp deeper we can flat some with KK and AKs though. Rake is also a factor. In raked games we eant to 4bet more and in unraked games (pay for time) we can flat more.

But yes, 4bet bluffs are more for the regs that will 3bet you light and have a fold button. If they are 3bet folding KQo, then KJs and KTs can get in there as a 4bet bluff. If they 3bet fold AQo, then AJs, ATs, A5s can get in there as a 4bet bluff. They should be 3betting all suited broadways, A5s, A4s, AQo type hands and suited connectors at some frequency vs EP open and wider as you go down the line. If they are much tighter, then yes your 4bet range should be tighter.

Vs a player that will 3bet an EP open and call a 4bet with AQo, I think AKo makes a good 4bet. Lower suited aces obviously go down some in value there.

If a guy is pure 3bet calling 99, TT, then JJ and QQ probably are good to 4bet at higher frequency too.

Obviously the biggest counter to people that don't 3bet light and don't fold to 4bets is to fold more often. These guys are going to struggle to win a big pot off of you. This type of player is much easier to play against than the regs who have 3bet folds and 4bet folds. When the games are filled with these players, you will have less big losing days. You will pay these players off a lot less than the guys that are 4betting A5s, A4s, tripple barrel bluffing post, and regularly getting it in pre with AKo and big pocket pairs.

Just as an example, the other day, I was playing 1/2 8 handed, open AKo from UTG to 10, +1 calls, unknown rec LJ raises to 30 off of a 550 stack, it folds to me. Vs this small raise size I think AKo is mostly ahead of this range, so I make it $100. Folds to LJ who now raises to $300. The 3x IP 5bet for more than half their stack from an unknown rec is such a strong tell for KK+, I have an easy fold. And losing $100 pre with AKo at 1/2 is not a deal. It is a good hand, and he had a better hand. But good regs will 5bet jam off of 100-200bb stacks with JJ+ and AK, sometimes lighter without telegraphic the strength of their hand. This is much harder to play against and there is so much more variance.

I think good regs can lose sight of the fact that playing with nitty recs can actually increase your win rate by a decent amount because you will have far less days where you lose 1-2 buy ins plus compared to reg heavy games where you are more likely to both win or lose 1-2+ buy ins where stacks are flying in pre with AKo and JJ+ regularly. Furthermore, the tight players who aren't 3betting and 4betting light are also the type of players that will pay you off when you have a hand that beats their overpair or top pair with AK. Good regs are better at making big folds.

There is definitely something to cherish about playing with these nitty recs.

So true, it so much easier playing against tighter opponents. Once they come over the top we can just let go of most of our holdings and know we made a good fold.

I had just looked up JJ vs 99+, AQ+. This spot is a coin flip. It might just be better to take a small loss and let go this hand and find better favorable spots like when we have 80%+ or so.

4betting JJ and calling is similiar here. When you 4bet, you're calling a shove. When you flat the 3bet, and the board comes low, the chance of folding to any bets are slim, so you might just get it in anyway, because you didnt call pre just to fold post and villain is likely to barrel AK as he would barrel QQ. In both spots you're unsure of where you stand. Thats not a good spot to be in.

Although its a nitty fold, i think its better to take a small loss and find better favorable spots.

If they have 99, TT, and AQ, I think JJ is worth continuing. Even if villain bets flop with A high or a weaker overpair, most villains of said type are not bombing turns and rivers with air, so we can make some pretty big lay downs on turns and rivers.

It helps to play a bit deeper to have implied odds to hit our set and win a big pot as well.

This is great advice. Thank you for this. Good post.

Yes.

I'm a gray beard and people assume I'm an OMC which I try to encourage as long as I can. Last night I stacked a V after I 3 bet with 45su, and aggressively bet each street on a Q238A board. He didn't raise me till my river bet and was totally shocked when his set of 8s didn't hold.

I'm not looking to hit the flop in most cases. If an A or K flops, I'm content to take the pot with what V must assume is my big slick.

45su is really at the very low end of my range and only after I've been card dead for a long time with a very low VPIP. More typical for me is 78 - 9Tsu and 68su is my fave one gapper. I definitely lose more pots than I win with these starters but I win lots of small pots and the occasional big pot. The lost pots reinforce my OMC tight image, so it's part of the meta I'm trying to create.

Very occasionally I'm get 4B and have to give up the hand, though that just furthers my OMC image.

In general, yes, because 3 betting tends to still be very tight at 1/2 and 1/3.

Even my 3b range is linear and fairly tight (I default AQ+, JJ+) at a new table until I see the dynamic.

I'll add that position should be considered. I'm more likely to attempt a 4B bluff from OOP, whereas IP we can take more flops.

The problem with 4betting wide in live small stakes is most 3b ranges are very strong, so you're really looking for someone who 3bets wide and folds to a 4b which is a fairly narrow attribute. I think at 100 bb in low stakes I would keep my 4b range pretty straightforward unless there was a major exploit - the actual 4b in itself is very hard to be profitable unless stacks are extremely deep or your opponent has a major deficiency. Unnecessary variance imo

Against most players, I would only 4! AA or KK+.

So many low-stakes players believe “the fourth bet is always Aces!” so yeah, I have 4-bet bluffs in my range. A lot of players have pretty obvious sizing tells you can use to your advantage, too:

Open QJs to 14 in MP after two limps, a call, BB 3-bets to 42, I 4-bet to 142 and everyone folds.

Two limps. MP Raise to 12. Button 3-bet to 35. I cold 4-bet QJss to 100 in BB, everyone folds.

I open A5dd $10 UTG, two calls, CO 3-bets to $35, I 4-bet to $120 and she folds JJ face-up

So small 3-bets are not QQ+/AK for some people? It still doesn't seem worth it, as you win a small pot preflop.

Thing is your 4bet here has to win at a high % to make this work. Looks like you're risking about 128 to win 66 in your QJ example - I mean if your read is locked on then go for it but I think overall most people will torch money.

At 1/3, vs like 98% of Vs, 4 bet bluffing is just torching money. At 2/5 its definitely not. People dont quite 3 bet wide enough, but they also put you on QQ+ AK whenever you 4 bet so you can fold out big hands for players capable of folding

When people only 3bet hands they are willing to stack off with(as most live low stakes players do) then yes.

If someone is 3!ing a lot, you 4!ing light might be good. Otherwise, the way to exploit strong face up ranges is to 4! AA/KK, fold a lot, but call with pps and good suited cards when you are getting the right odds.

The saying the 4th raise is always aces is from one of Cloutier's books from mid stakes games in Texas 30+ years ago. It makes sense when people are limping a lot and 3!ing tight.

Everyone needs to start earlier ... in most 1-2 games most (if not everyone else) at the table have a limping range and a raising range. So the first thing you need to do is work out what they are raising and what they are limping.
It's likely that half the table will only raise 99+/AK/KQ/QJs/AJs+/AQ and even 99/QJs/AQ might be limped some of the time, so even a 3bet with JJ isn't that great (52% HU) and AQs is a slight dog. This then flows down that if others only 3bet QQ+/AK (or even tighter) your 4bet range is like KK+ and if you bluff with AKs or call it are both kind of mid.

If you start with someone that has almost no open limp range, then the 3bet range can be wider (even wider than the above open raise range) ... and then the 4bet range can target the weaker parts of the 3bet range.

I see way too many people shove AK/QQ into KK+ and decide "it's just a cooler" but it's not (see Mlark's post above). I've probably lost count of the number of times I've just snap folded QQ to some bad randoms, and while I've got better I should have folded a lot more AK 😀.

Definitely a case of don't knock it until you have tried it.

I get it, there are the players who have zero fold to 4bet range. But it works more than people realize.

That said, I don't like QJs as a 4bet and especially a cold 4bet. The best hands are always going to be those with an A followed by those with a K. Very simple, block AA, KK, and AK.

A lot of what you're saying makes sense. I think it's a huge deal when players have limping ranges and even worse, sizing tells. Like, when you see someone limp AQs and JJ in a 2/5 with a 10 straddle on, what on earth are you doing 3betting them with AQo when they raise to 30?

At the same time, there is a large portion of players where light 3 betting is going to print. And it really doesn't matter whether you have a hand with 52%, 46%, or 35% equity vs their range. What matters is equity realization, and when you have the betting lead, and especially when you are in position, you will by far over realize your equity while your opponent will under realize his.

Let's say a player is opening A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo+, KQo, and 88+ (he may limp weaker hands. A5s is 40.3% vs that range. Maybe he folds some of the bottom of this range, KQo, A9s, AQo, QTs when we 3bet. He is likely 4betting only a small portion of his range, like 10% (AA and KK). And those are the only hands that have you in really terrible shape.

Let's say he has the terrible AKo. We're dominated sure, but how bad is it really? There are two A in the deck and 3 K in the deck for 5 cards he can hit on the flop that are very bad for us. But one will come on the flop only 3/10 times. 7/10 times they whiff. And a lot of times when that happens, we get to win the hand by cbetting flop, and occasionally by firing multiple barrels. The same is true of EVERY AX hand. Equity, shmequity.

Take a hand like QQ even. There are 3 As and 4 Ks in the deck for 7 scare cards. 4 out of 10 times one will show up on the flop when we have A5s. So like, 40% of the time we have a good chance to take it down by cbetting flop, and occasionally by firing multiple barrels.

What about JJ? When we have A5s, an over card comes out 6 out of 10 times. What does that mean? We get them to fold on flops and occasionally by firing multiple barrels.

A lot of times in theory a hand like A5s will have just a little over 0 EV when we are 3betting or 4 betting and the same EV when we call with it. But I would argue, especially in the case of 3betting it, that we waaay out perform the solver in live poker by raising this hand preflop. Because you won't get 4bet often enough, people will overfold to flop cbets (and occasionally barrels on later streets), and they will under bluff by check raising to attack your cbets.

Now, one thing is for sure. 3betting and 4betting light will increase your win rate, but it will increase variance. There will be days when it seems like all your bluffs get through, snd sometimes you actually hit a hand like trip 5s or the nut flush with A5s. Other times you will miserably fail and get jammed on pre or get called on the flop, perhaps to give up turn and river. When you put money in preflop with these hands, on average you will get more money in return, but it's not going to be $2 in return for every $1 we put in. In fact is it might be more like $0.50 for every $10 we put in the pot (and that assumes we have a big edge postflop). But if I 4bet A5s to $100 in a deep 1/3 game, and I'm making $5 net EV when I do this, and a hand takes 2 minutes, during the time I played the hand, I made $5. That's kind of a lot of money for 2 minutes of your time and it certainly helps you towards achieving a win rate of $50+ per hour, which can be possible depending on how deep and juicy your games are (with the help of straddles).

Your dividends will hit even more when you actually have a value hand and get called because they saw you get, "out of line," with A5s preflop, when you're actually not out of line, they are just used to weaker passive players.

Crunch from title alone: in low stakes games, yes. Almost no one has a 3b/fold range in these games. Even the guys who sometimes 3bet light tend to do it linearly, rather than balanced, and tend to fall into a sunk cost falay when they get 4-bet.

Ok, off to read actual post now

Post title grunch (still haven't read the replies): it seems like you already know the answer. As for when to continue and whether to 4-bet or flat, that depends heavily on stack sizes and V profile. With some, I'll happily GII and usually flip with AK for normal stacks, for others I'm not continuing without KK+, and I'm usually 4-bet shoving, but flatting for deception against some Vs at some stack depths. Also, I'll flat PPs often if I'm getting good set mining odds against a V I know will get married to an over pair.

I'll also add that the answer can vary with the stakes and open size versus stack size.

At 1/3, if someone opens to $15, and there's a 3B to $45-$60 off a $500 stack, 4B-bluffing to $150-$180 is torching if the 3B'er isn't capable of 3B'ing light and finding a fold. If he's just going with his hand, he'll 5B jam, and we'll have to fold. Shorter stacks at 1/3 are mostly just 4B jamming. It's pretty unusual to see a 4B at 1/3 that isn't a jam, because the bet size is over the pit commitment threshold.

At 2/5, where the opens are $15-$20, and the stacks are around $1k, and more players are capable of 3B'ing light, then 4B-bluffing becomes more viable.

As the stacks get deeper, and opponents get more capable, then we can work in some 4B-bluffs. I was recently in a very deep stacked 1/3 game, in which I actually got in a light 5B/bluff with AQs (limp-folds to a smallish BTN open, I 3B from SB, the BB min-clicked it to 2X, BTN folded, I 5B to 2.5x). In another recent game I called off a light 4B-jam from a short stack (AJ) and really light 5B over-jam from the deep-stacked opener (JJ) after I 3B with KK.

Yesterday, 2/5, 8max, me with an OMC image and I must admit I've been playing OMC. The table is very aggressive and I'm pretty sure I'm the second worst player. I've not gotten to see any cheap pots; there's a 3B almost every hand. With PP I've called up to $70 pre when all stacks were at least 15X, but I've not won anything but a couple of small pots where I led and everyone folded. The one time I tried a bluff 3B to $60 with 86su, a 4B to $225 chased me out.

V1 - New player, first hand, sits down into the BB making a pile of chips he's pulling out of pockets. I guess he is between $500 - 800.

V2 - is short stacked in CO.

BUT straddled to $10, SB call, V1 in BB calls, me UTG calls, one more call, MP makes it $60, V2 in CO shoves for $215, V1 without pause says, "I'll give you action," and calls, I pause shove ~$900. Folds around to V1 who contemplates for quite a while and calls about $500 more.

V2 wants to run it twice and I always agree, so two full boards to come. Both Vs had AXsu, one flopped a low pair, both flopped their FD, but I scooped.

Yeah, yeah, I know I played it like every OMC you've ever seen using the oldest OMC trick in the book. OMC 4B shove after limping UTG? Yep, of course it was AA. sometimes stereotypes exist for a good reason.