Moderation Questions
The last iteration of the moderation discussion thread was a complete disaster. Numerous attempts to keep it on topic fa
One of us still is, just stopped being aware. I guess you and I disagree which one.
Anyway, the Berlin Wall fell when I was 7 and we emigrated to the UK when I was 8, so I don't know that I was particularly heavily propagandised, and certainly not in my formative years.
Where are you originally from, if you don't mind telling?
vic, it astounds me that you're such a zealot that you don't take the word of all the soviets who were fighting that war who are on record stating they could have never done it without lend-lease because that conflicts with your "everything the west does is evil and russia #1" mantra
why dont you take the word of all of the Soviets that say the opposite?
I mean you are basing this entirely on historian who has been disgraced and the translation of an anonymous conversation as related 3rd hand by a 1950s US historian who may have had an agenda.
Looks like we need a "what really happened in ww2" thread
and regardless, even if lend-lease and US aid was the crucial factor without which Hitler would have taken over the SU, that still does not disprove that the Soviets "won the war", ie that they did by far the most.
it's pretty clear that if we went through everything on record and found everyone on the politburo and all the generals agreed they would have lost without lend-lease but you found a russia guy with an apple orchard in Irkutsk who was born in 1972 who disagreed with them you'd be pointing to this apple farmer as your evidence and claiming the others didn't have proper understanding and perspective
Personally, I was not taught that the US was on the right side of every conflict and won everything alone, so I don't need most of my learning to be debunked.
It sounds like you received a very biased education and then were so disillusioned by finding out that the US wasn't perfect that you jumped to the side of thinking they were always on the wrong side (or the right side for the wrong reasons).
You assume everyone else had the same biased education that you did, so you are certain they all believe everything you were taught, even when that is not what they say.
Many people did not receive this biased education, and others likely did receive it but never took everything they heard for granted, so they didn't need a debunking later.
it's pretty clear that if we went through everything on record and found everyone on the politburo and all the generals agreed they would have lost without lend-lease but you found a russia guy with an apple orchard in Irkutsk who was born in 1972 who disagreed with them you'd be pointing to this apple farmer as your evidence and claiming the others didn't have proper understan
No that's not clear. Not really sure why you are just making things up about me.
i grew up learning that america is evil and should always be rooted against unless they are playing ice hockey, in which case they need all the help and support they can get
Neville Chamberlain beat Hitler
I wouldn't, because it seems a rather silly thing to attempt to do. D-Day and the ensuing battles had a huge impact. You've got the Allies invading Italy, where the Germans were forced to deploy hundreds of thousands. You've got allies proving logistical and strategic support as well as equipment. Lots of other factors. Do we give the Soviets 30%, 40%, 50%, 60% credit? No idea. But what I am confident of is that giving them 90% credit while reducing the West's contribution to "did a good job bombing civilians as usual." is ridiculous. The latter part even more so when one considers the gulags. Glass houses, throwing stones, etc.
but i'm not making things up
i love how you ignore that the top soviet running the war says they would have lost without lend-lease
I dont ignore that. I understand context. I also dont think Zhukov did a deep dive bc he was too busy you know, running the military aspect.
it's like you imagine zhukov was too busy arranging toy soldiers on a board to understand anything else
when the reality is at the highest level, people like zhukov are directing resources, they aren't saying "go west and aim for the chest" they are instead dispatching 2 tons of flour and 500k round of ammo to the third battalion
he absolutely is the exact kind of person who would have the deepest and greatest understanding of their supplies and how they were utilized
but instead you'd rather invent a scenario in your mind where he chooses to be ignorant of that, ignoring that logistical supply chains are the exact reason why we have so many people working in the hq instead of the front lines and that is the #1 priority for all armies
an army that's well fed and armed that gets orders to advance a little behind schedule is going to be infinitely more capable than one which receives an order to march west but is incapable of doing so because they are starving to death and don't have any fuel nor boots
furthermore, not only this, but in your world, zhukov is not only wholly ignorant of all that stuff, but still feels like randomly complimenting the aid they received from a former ally who is now an
enemy - this was not him fluffing up an ally for some propaganda piece - this was a private conversation that we only know existed because it took place in a room that was bugged by the KGB and is now in these archives that you otherwise hold so dearly so there was absolutely no reason for him to lie about it because it was a private audience, and no reason either for him to just pretend like he knew something about it, for example we do not have KGB recordings of Zhukov waxing poetically about whether Lebron was better than MJ
People say that the allies didn't help us. But it cannot be denied that the Americans sent us materiel without which we could not have formed our reserves or continued the war. The Americans provided vital explosives and gunpowder. And how much steel! Could we really have set up the production of our tanks without American steel? And now they are saying that we had plenty of everything on our own.
it's just wild that you'd cosplay like this an construe absurd scenarios just so it fits your extreme and binary worldview
That supporting Ukraine's defense against Russian invasion in 2024 is - obviously - morally righteous doesn't depend on the rather silly framing of what percentage responsibility the soviet union played in ww2.
so how then does showing an agreement of occupation that was followed as planned prove your point?if you want to convince someone what the inside of an orange looks like, is it helpful to instead show them a banana?i'd respect you more if you admitted you are firing from the hip and didn't read things through than to lie like this because if you're not lying and you genuinely t
im not lyin
yea they needed lend lease to win, PROBABLY, no that doesnt mean they didnt do the vast majority of the heavy lifting as the numbers have shown.
thank god america came and helped save the day with less lives lost and perhaps more romantic battles won.
It's a little much to call the discussion here "trolling." There is a poster that is making wildly exaggerated, even patently ridiculous statements. When that happens, people will counter those arguments the way those arguments are always countered: aggressively. If a single mod insists that even debating with Victor is trolling, then you may as well just shut this entire for
It's ridiculous. I took a week break, come back to discover I'm being trolled in the same manner by the same poster who then cries victim when it's pointed out.
Go to the LC thread and see one of my favorite movies is being discussed so I make some lc comments only to have the same poster come in, get jealous that this thread is not about him, and make some statements to fix that, then cry victim.
For the first phase of the full scale invasion of Ukraine: Zelenskyy defeated Putin. My evidence? Ukrainians did 100% of the killing.
And unsubbed.
I think we should be done re-litigating ww2, friends ♥
as i said earlier, you should have started from the beginning of the conversation
because you unbelievably have been arguing against the very thing you believe to be the case because this entire thing is about vic claiming lend-lease was meaningless and allies just bombed civilians - a side you happily stood up for not even realizing that's the position you were backing
nobody was contesting who was firing the guns
I deleted my last post bc I did not see crossnerd's request. I follow all mod requests.
It's ridiculous. I took a week break, come back to discover I'm being trolled in the same manner by the same poster who then cries victim when it's pointed out.Go to the LC thread and see one of my favorite movies is being discussed so I make some lc comments only to have the same poster come in, get jealous that this thread is not about him, and make some statements to fix tha
to get back on topic for the mod thread, I think that you should look at what started this conversation and how it progressed. in fact, specifically you should look at who brought up Stalin first. and you should also take note that I asked to end it on multiple occasion.
furthermore, this is a discussion board. we were doing a discussion. it seems that you would have preferred the discussion went in a different direction. as Donald Trump says, we cant always get what we want.
and lastly, no one was trolling you with the WW2 conversation or anything at all.
Hahahha, very good. Yep, that's me.
