$5/10/20 KdJd OOP with top pair

Should we ever consider raising the tiny flop cbet?

What would that accomplish? (Think about the hands that will call and the hands that will fold)

FWIW, the flop bet sizing seems fine, since the Villain likely recognized this as a way-ahead/way-behind board.

You are basically at the bottom of your range on the turn aren't you? Just fold and move on?

Sent from my Mi 9T using Tapatalk

You can also 4b pre as a bluff with equity as you're oop

Sent from my Mi 9T using Tapatalk

He raised and then called a 3-bet PF. Is KJs really the bottom of his range on the turn, especially since most of his range should be calling that small flop bet?

If we x/r flop at all, this hand probably does it some frequency as the merged part of our range. Not often though and it’s not because their bet is too small.

All 3 options are on the table, kinda depends on what your CO 5x iso range and strat is. There really isn’t any hand that flats a 3b OOP thst doesn’t also mix 4bs.

I prefer raise or fold in the CO, so I raise smaller. OTB, a mixed strat of raising large with a polar range and limping some hands in between seems more viable. KJs is probably strong enough to go in your raising range regardless.

If villain is any good, you just have to call it off. Since there’s some scuttlebutt that he’s too tight, maybe we can get away from our hand at some point. I think turn is too early to fold based on scuttlebutt alone…

I did end up folding, he's supposedly one of the tighter players in that game and the 1/2 pot sizing felt really value heavy. He also seemed competent enough to pull the trigger on the river, specially if he knows I don't normally play the 5/10 and was shot taking which he may or may not have realized idk I didn't say much but if he's seen me around at all he might have assumed.

I had another hand with him I won't make a new thread for, so anyone here that wants to chime in that'd be appreciated.

CO vs BTN again, my stack had dwindled to around $1500-$1700 at this point. Mostly due to lack of 3rd barrels (or over cbetting questionable textures) vs loose calling recs at the table.

Anyway, I open AQo from CO to $60 and he 3bets to $160 on the BTN.

Are we just pure folding vs this tighter villain?

He hadn't 3bet me too much, maybe twice plus the hand I posted.

So I guess we have all the kq. We have some or all 88. 22 let's assume we never had, or we raised on flop. We have A8s 87s 89s. Arguably some of the suited 8 bluff raise the flop. So we have 12 better and max 9 worse. We do continue more than half the time so it's closer than I assumed but might be a fold.

Sent from my Mi 9T using Tapatalk

Although thinking about it, 8x s probably fold to the 3b so maybe the turn is just a fold....

Sent from my Mi 9T using Tapatalk

And what did he have v aq?

Sent from my Mi 9T using Tapatalk

KK and we did not hit the A

Both these spots suck primarily because the euro nit is on your direct left and on the button in both spots and you feel like he’s exploiting you (and isn’t, just doing nit things) and the easiest adjustment to make is literally just to seat change.

Also make no mistake this is a common player type at midstakes and also one that is terrible for the game which is why the other regs are trolling him so don’t feel bad about it or like it signals you’re a weak player or whatever. Don’t give this player type loose action and don’t sit on their direct right. Just treat them as an additional rakebox that you needle, you’ll never really win money from them except in rare situations where you cooler them, but you shouldn’t ever lose money to them either.

When this player type 3bets in your standard lol live fit or fold game they just always have it and you’re overanalyzing the situation playing the hand like that might not be the case.

Yeah trust me I wouldn't have been seated to his right but it was the only open seat (think you got left/right mixed up there)

Maybe could have moved when one other player left but regs had a grip on those seat change buttons lol Asian lady on my right took the open seat.

Why would we care about sitting to a nit's direct right? If they don't do anything, they shouldn’t really bother us. And if they always have it when they 3bet, we just fold. The player you're describing shouldn’t be a real menace if he has position on us, should he? I mean, I'm kinda having a hard time believing this euro pro really is as nitty as you're making him out to be (I don’t know him, but neither do you and you're making a whole lot of assumptions), but if he is, then why does it matter that much where he sits?

Yeah that's true enough, I'd still rather not be to the right of the other good player at the table. He may not have even been the tightest one there. Debating whether I should have even stayed in the game, since the few stations were not even that loose preflop and no one was giving real action.

Pre I actually wouldn't mind folding. Your ISO range should be fairly tight when we go 5bb, so KJs isn't super high in our range while his ~16bb 3bet should be pretty strong.

Don't consider raising the flop. His cbet size is very standard.

Not really considering folding turn, and you're not even close to the bottom of your range here. Kx is still very high in your range. If v is really a nit we could consider HERO folding the river. Kx on a K high board in a 3b pot is massively high in your range. You are going going to get run over if you fold to less than half pot on the turn.

2nd hand your 4b size is too big for being less than 100bb deep. I would go 2.2-2.5x here if 4betting, so like 400. But facing the jam yeah I would fold now, even though we went 500. We aren't going to have enough equity to call off with AQo. 4betting CO v bu with AQo is fine, but you need to study all in equity and pot odds, because AQo generally is going to have less than 30% equity and you need greater than 33% here. You generally are going to want JJ+ and AKo, AKs to stack off here, maybe TT+.

If you're going to be playing 5/10/20 I think GTO Wizard or something similar is going to be a worthwhile investment. If you're playing vs regs who understand preflop ranges and 3b/4b pots a lot better than you do, you're going to get crushed.

The struggle with trying to play "GTO-light" is figuring out, with very limited time, where our hand falls on the MDF. Without doing a range construction, it feels like KJ is close to the indifference point, but I'm not really sure.

That's why when your games are tough enough you should do solver study on 3b pots. Without having looked at this exact spot, from studying I can tell you that KJ is probably never folding turn on a k high board in a 3b flop and almost never folding clean rivers either at 125bb.

I mean, if you know villain was a nit, then yeah just fold pre and fold turn.

And just fold AQo to the 3b too. (Against a bot, the 4b is fine at some frequency, but I’m sorry to say that calling it off is a certified punt regardless).

Always hard to figure out in these hand histories what you actually knew at the time. Based on OP, I thought all we had to go off of is that regs rib him about being tight, which happens all the time in these games where people are always trying to egg people on to induce action…

Ugh... don't love our options at most points here.

Probably fold pre, to this >3x raise size, when there's a limper in front of us. The combination of our read that V is nitty, the limper's presence, and the raise size should make V's range stronger.

Check-raising flop is an interesting idea, blocking top pair, CO vs BTN, when V c-bets super small. I think raising might be a polarization mistake, i.e., we wouldn't be sure if we're raising for value or as a bluff. Our hand seems a bit too in-between, so I think we can only call.

Probably just flat call turn, and look to play some fifth street chicken. Depending on the river card, I might donk for a block size, but mostly I think we're just checking, hoping V checks back, and unfortunately folding if V jams.

Yeah I don't normally fold turn but giving him a tight range pre of like TT+, KQs+, AKo and with all the nit talk I couldn't think of many hands he continues turn that I'm still ahead of. I realize the river is probably the spot for the hero fold though as I wouldn't dream of folding for 1/2 pot in my normal 2/5/10 so definitely some mental aspect there since I was shot taking and already had to top up half a buy in.

Yeah this felt like a serious punt, I was down to my last buy in for the shot take and honestly didn't even know how much was in my stack when I decided to 4bet. I eyeballed it and thought it was only like $600-700 more to call off the jam but that can't be right so I was just tilted and tired and should definitely have known where my stack was at and kept the 4bet small.

What's the advantage of GTOw? Seems you can play around with stack depths for preflop ranges a bit which might be worthwhile but I have a drive full of pio solves I worked on over the years. All my pio stuff is 100bb, which might be all I need for the 5/10/20 short term if I continue to take shots. The $2/5 and $2/5/10 game is usually 200-400bb deep though, wouldn't mind working on some deep stack solves.

Anyway thanks for the feedback, much appreciated

I think it is most important that you have some solver work that you are doing, not so important which program you use. Maybe take some time and just review 3b pots on k high flops.

I don't know where the idea that villain was tight was coming from besides table talk, but I wouldn't consider table talk definitive. There are plenty of hands v could be double barreling that you are ahead of. AQ, AJ, JT, backdoor spades, KT, random AXs, you chop with KJ.

yeah idk man. if you really have a bunch of solves this should be the easiest spot in the world to look at, honestly just doesn't even need to be a thread. regardless u just shouldn't fold ur hand ott in pretty much any permutation vs this size on this board. you're doing some weird soul reading vs reg that you know nothing about (likely bc afraid of the money). id imagine if you're going to do this post you're better off folding pre from an ev standpoint - at this spr the money is going to need to go in, if you're not on board with that and you consistently fold / underplay your equity post, you're very likely to turn a +ev call into a losing one.

i think the real question is do we want to approach this more like a 50 or 60 bb sim given opening size and stacks remaining. i kind of think so although i suspect midstakes reg is going to be playing 100bb sims even though its inaccurate in this context.

i think regardless of how tight people say he is, this (3betting co guy likely isoing too much from the button) is not a node he's likely to under aggress in pre

will parrot what mlark said (and i say in pretty much every thread) re gtow. you don't really seem to know your pre or post ranges which makes it unlikely for you to be a winner at midstakes if there are competent regs playing unless someone is whaling

re aq, pre rfi sizing potentially too large but ok, 4b sizing too large, call vs 5b is bad at equilibrium (probably - ~15bb), worse vs a guy you think is too tight - 5b is likely a node he will actually be too tight in, even worse given its a shot you're not reloading you stopped playing after blah blah

Yeah I realize even if he is tight pre he is likely aggressive post flop and still has plenty of the hands you mention he's supposed to continue with.

I should have reviewed some common 3b/4b pots before shot taking instead of just jumping in cause I was up heaps in the smaller game. Lesson learned the hard way.

I did take a look at my sims now and KJ is a pure call vs larger sizing on turn and folds to river jam on brick no spade with all combos of KJ except KsJs when spades miss which I'm trying to understand. If we're blocking spades wouldn't it be more likely villain is jamming for value? Only thing I can think of is that we actually unblock his suited Ax spades and non Broadway spade combos that have to jam river. But without any spades we still unblock all of his missed spade draws so idk