Nut flush river bet size on a dryish board

If you're going to play A4s after a raise, you need to play them like AA and 3!. Coldcalling with so many players left to act is no-bueno.

You misused the word 'coldcall' but I got your point.

Even at my age, I still learn something new every day.

In my experience, the min 3b on the button is likely a degen/gambler type trying "juice up the pot" in case they hit their hand. I don't think it's a very strong play at all, whereas a small 3b to $20 could be indicative of a weak player trying to get some action with a monster hand.

I agree with AF that your hand is best as a 3b or fold in EP, especially against a weaker play opening to a smaller size. Post flop, XR on flop could be good? OTT I think I would prefer the gigantic lead if we were HU, but you have so much equity with a double gutter and NFD that it can't really be that bad?

River seems like a jam. Guessing this guy may be very strong and it will be hard to put you on the NF when you take this line.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have seen two min 3! before, one player had AKo and the other one had AJo. My sample size observed is way too small, but I thought it's still worth sharing.

I didn't realize I had double gutter (I forgot the upper end) so good job in spotting it!

It's hard to put V in a hand, because V had better position than me on the flop and on the turn. He should have raised a straight OTT, and he should have raised two pairs/ sets on the turn if he hasn't done it on the flop. If V is also on a FD, surely jamming is the best play. V can also be having a pair (pair of 8, for example) and a straight draw. How much can they call?

Pre is fine in average passive/sticky games -- at least that's what I play in often. On river, I'd bet $100 - $150 for pure value. I just hope he raises w/ a smaller flush.

Betting a 100, hoping to get a crying call from say 89.

And agree on min-3b being likely weaker from degen bloating pot.

Preflop has been discussed very well.

Flop: standard

Turn: I would bet smaller multi-way.

River: Main V obviously turned some equity, otherwise he would have folded to our large bet. A tank turn call here for me means he thought about raising. He has played this hand very passively.

So I think his range is 77, 97s, 65s, Ts9s, 98s, maybe A8s, small spade draws and some 99. Maybe he has slow-played some sets but I think he would have bet 2/3 of them on the flop.

He has to fold his one-pair hands to any bet really. But I think he calls with the rest of his range if we offer him a reasonable price.

I probably bet ~125 and offer him 3-1. I think he'd call with his two-pair, straights, sets and all flushes. Anything bigger starts folding his two-pairs and smaller sets if he has any left. This also leaves some room for him to raise his better flushes, of which he has a few combos.

Nothing wrong with calling the BTN’s $15 flop Cbet, but with 2 players behind us, if we want to continue we should continue with a c/r, we want villain to fold JT,KQ type hands.

Interesting donk bet OTT. I would rather have a c/r range with my straights and combo draws like A4s, and only donk bet for a smaller sizing like 40-50%psb with A8, 87, 99 type hands, hands that would hate for the turn to get checked thru but also don't mind folding to a raise.

If I had to donk bet for this sizing 75%psb, I would use sets, and str8's mostly.

As played, Since I can’t think of very many bluffs hero can have, I would probably default to a small bet that I think will get called, like 50%-75%psb, however, if I thought villain has enough straight combos of 34,47,79 (that he will call with) than I like jamming river for pot.

Points taken. My lesson learned from earlier hands in this table is that lots of players (inc. this V) are way too passive - they call when they should have folded, and check when they should have bet. None of them are stationey. The btn sat opposite to me on the table, so I got some live tells on the flop that he's likely to give up on an non-improving turn.

With the donk bet, I wanted to build the pot up when we hit something big on the river. I am not sure whether my strategy works the best for this type of villains so I am open to suggestions.

A cold call is when you call more then one betting level at once. Here there was the 2 blind and raise to 6 so it's a cold call, he is right.

3b pre
Then second time round come on, 4b pre you blocking the nuts and it looks like you are LRR with a strong hand against his almost min raise ( min raise would have been 10)

Check raise the flop as it missed his range
Check raise the turn you are double gutted now too so you have 18 outs v KK. donk is ok if you have some value donks.
Jam river targeting flushes. River you need two bet sizes. Big bet size for best bluffs and best value. Small size for weaker hand, worse bluffs and some traps. No point tapping with this nut flush as you unblock all the other high flushes

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The one thing I don't want to see happen is we jam and he says, "I guess you've got the nuts," and open folds a smaller flush. The average player does not like to go broke.

Basically, I think he'll call a value bet with a wider range, but is only calling all-in w/ K-high (he 3bet w/ K7s, so it's hard to believe he has a suited K here) and maybe Q-high flush. I mean go for it, though, if you think he'll call.

The min-click 3B multi-way is a fish move that I just ignore, like my opponents' handsomeness. Otherwise, I might be jealous now that I'm old and out of shape.

I don't get the turn lead for 3/4 pot. What is this meant to accomplish? I may have overlooked the BTN's stack size, but are you calling a big raise here? I think I'd have preferred to check raise the flop if we want to steal the pot, or a flop donk bet if we wanted to start a multi-street bluff.

When V tank-calls with button behind, I might think he was on some draw, or perhaps turned middle 2P (65), or turned a pair + a draw, or maybe even a set with 66. Maybe a straight. Hard to say if he was considering a raise or fold, given that the BTN is uncapped, and your turn donk could be a better hand for value,

If I was V, and saw you bet 3/4 pot on the turn, I'd be more likely to think you were betting 2P+ for value and protection than drawing to a flush. I think you might bet small here, like $50, and hope he decides to turn his hand into a bluff, to rep the flush, or that he made a lower flush and raises for value.

Just read the rest of the thread.

It's not a cold call of the 3B when you already VPIP'd. It's just a double-flat (you flat called the open, then flat-called the 3B).

I disagree that you should be 3 or 4B'ing here. Suited ace-wheel combos play fine multi-way. The hand isn't doing great against a UTG opening range, unless we think the 3x open size is a weak hand sizing tell. And it looks fishy AF to flat call the open, then put in a back raise 4B from UTG1. If the BTN calls, which seems likely, we'll be playing a bloated pot OOP post.

Re-reading the OP, I'm a little unclear on the effective stack size, whether V had $300 to start or $300 left on the river. If it was $300 to start, and he has less than $200 left, I might bet $50, and hope he jams. If he has $300 left, I might bet $75.

I don't like betting big here, because it lets him get away from too much of his range, and doesn't leave enough room for him to raise for value or as a bluff.

If I remember correctly, we are both female players. Jamming shouts out 'nut flush', particularly if villain doesn't read action lines across three streets and just focus on the river action.

I don't think a smaller flush is calling down to the river to fold, though. Does it happen to you often?

The cold call is of the first raise. Second one is double flat agreed

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I think the big mistake is the first call at least if you are trying to play the Nash equilibrium. I think you should have no calls here at all

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On the river V had 300 left. I had him covered.

The issue with betting small to induce a raise is that in my local casino, the percentage of players who would do that against me is just way too low to make it profitable - they are not aggressive enough.

Nope, but maybe to an all-in, especially if you are a female. I am, too, and they always perceive me as tight and never bluffing (although they are wrong -- but I like them to keep thinking that 😉 ).

I think they will call $100 - $150 w/ smaller flush, which is what I recommended originally.

If that's the definition of a "cold" call, then every limp is a cold call, and every flat call of an open raise is a cold call.

I believe the term is generally reserved for when there's been a raise, and a re-raise, then someone flat calls the re-raise, without having entered the pot already.

So, raise, re-raise, call is a cold call. Raise, flat call, re-raise, flat call is a double-flat.

I suppose it somewhat depends on our reads and table dynamics.

Suited ace-wheel combos play well enough multi-way that we can over-call / over-limp in some situations. This hand is off the rails from the jump, because of the loose-passive fish opening 3x from UTG, in a game where I'd assume the normal open size is going to be 4x-6x.

If UTG opened for a normal size, I might actually fold A4s next to act. I'd like to 3B it if one or more opponents in front of us flat called. Putting in a 3B next to act might be okay occasionally. But if it's a loose-passive table, I think it's fine to flat call and see a cheap flop.

If this is true, and if your image is such that opponents just always think you have it when you bet big, then I'd think you could adjust by bluffing more, and bigger. If you're never caught bluffing, you're not bluffing enough.

Here, if a jam rarely gets called, because of your image, then obviously we need to size down. But the SPR is awkward here, such that I'd think any bet over $100 isn't likely to get called if your opponents think you always have the nuts, whereas a smaller bet might occasionally induce an opponent to think you're just block betting with 65 or 66, or possibly 97.

I think that's the benefit of donking the turn when you pick up the draw. If your image is that you're always betting for value, never bluffing, your opponents are likely to think you donked turn with some value hand that needed protection against the draw. Those hands aren't going to like the river, and are going to mostly just check-fold.

The other adjustment, and alternative action here, would be to just check, and let your opponents fire away. Here again, if your image is that you never bluff, but will always bet with value, then a check is likely to be higher EV than betting any amount.

The problem there is that once your opponents realize you donk turns with draws, and check river with the nuts, they'll start raising your turn donks and checking back rivers when you make your hand. Therefore I think the adjustment you want to make is to just bet the river when you have value, and when you're bluffing.

Personally, I prefer betting small. A 1/4 to 1/3 pot bet leaves V enough stack depth to think a jam would get you to fold your 65, 66, and 97 combos, which are the hands that your opponents are most likely to think you have when you donk this turn. It's a disaster if you check and he just checks back.

Appreciate all the feedback you guys provided!

Lol. Lying liars who lie. He had a flush. Why else ask if you had the nut flush? ROFL.
Bummer he had no game in him.

Keep bombing into him. NH.